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Who does which? In one way, it's good for the soil to leave the ground undisturbed until March. On the other hand, leisurely working the team on nice, dry autumn days and getting the ground rough plowed for winter saves a lot of time come the first thaw, when getting in the field can be a task due to the mud and one finds oneself behind schedule in most years before the season even begins. (Not that this ever happens to me of course!)

Klaus Karbaumer says 2016-11-07 16:14:39 (CST)



I usually plow in late fall or even on mild days in winter. It gets you ahead and hard freezes can help to make the soil more friable as well as fight some of the weeds. The downside is ,of course, that there is the risk of soil erosion with heavy rains on any ground that is not flat. My most vulnerable plots I leave alone and/or have a cover crop.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

Ralph in N.E.Oh says 2016-11-07 20:03:36 (CST)



Brian, many old timers didn't like to plow sod in the fall because the grass gets off to a good start in the spring. These days when guys use grass killer it may not be a concern.
The only down side to fall plowing that I see is wind erosion. The way my farm sits, that is not a big problem for me. I really like plowing in the fall, but many years I'm too far behind to get it done.
The freezing and thawing through winter breaks the ground up in an excellent manner. The fall plowed ground breaks up so easy in spring, I'm sure it would save me days of fitting time. The green grass that the old timers worried about, in my opinion, is no threat. You can disc it out with very little effort. The ground is so friable in spring it is unbelievable at times. No doubt working with Mother Nature is a great idea, fall plowing is no exception.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

Billy Foster says 2016-11-08 05:40:01 (CST)



I have found, up here in Maine, if one is plowing sod under it is best to do it in the fall. There is not enough time in the spring to get the sod broken down before it is time to plant. If the ground is in constant tillage I suspect the best thing to do would be wait until spring. I live in hilly country so erosion is a big concern. I always plow along the contour and if fall plowing I don't disk more than what is needed to close the furrow.
I should also say I do not do a terrible amount of plowing each year, and acre or two at best.
Billy


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

BrianL says 2016-11-08 13:51:53 (CST)



All makes sense. It seems the only drawback with fall plowing is the potential for surface erosion and, I suppose, that depends a lot on what winter weather brings. Here in north central IL, we're as flat as flat can be, so wind can be an issue. (Hoping for snow cover or at least frozen ground.) Unfortunately, the trend among our Big Ag neighbors is to cut down the old wind breaks since they think the shade from those old trees cuts into their total yield. Sigh. At least ours is still intact.

Ralph, I hope you're right about the miracle of winter on soil. I spent the morning plowing a section that hadn't been worked by me in the time we've farmed here. The previous owners trampled it to death with big machines, and my team and I were upturning huge globs of compacted clay and skidding along plow pan. Been through this with other sections and I have seen what a little love can do to the land (the soil has lots of potential), so I'll persevere. I'll be tackling the last of the ground trampled by tractor-treaded John Deeres in the next few weeks and letting the only tracks left be those of mules. Wish me luck.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

Ralph in N.E.Oh says 2016-11-08 18:31:22 (CST)



BrianL, You will be very happy with your plowing come spring. The little bit of erosion you may experience is nothing when compared to the damage big wheeled, heavy equipment has done over the years. You keep working your mules and farming with the old methods. You will continue to see improvements all over your farm. Even a bad job of plowing done in the fall is easy to work up when spring comes. Just don't work the ground when it is wet. A day of waiting on drier weather will put you weeks ahead.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

BrianL says 2016-11-12 12:44:21 (CST)



I may need to resort to a sub-soiler to get things started. There's solid clay about 4" down and, when we could break through that, I thought my mules were going to blow a gasket. They pulled their way through, but I felt I was asking too much to do too much. I can attest first hand what those big machines and big farming practices do to soil. Badly compacted clay with no organic material and a veneer of grass. Glad I'm attacking this now and not in spring. I will say, I've worked on other areas of our land and they've show massive improvement. So I know there's potential there. To put this in perspective, We're in the corn belt so we have (in theory) some of the best soil there is. A while back I was digging holes for a hitching post just off the tillable land. I unearthed 24" of rich black loam before I even touched clay. I mourn for what used to be.

I guess the only other option is to hold a plowing contest on my farm and welcome all comers. ;)


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

Klaus Karbaumer says 2016-11-14 09:51:39 (CST)



Brian, I wouldn't try to plow very deep the first time. Four inches should be enough, because you can get some of your crops to do the work for you and break through the plow pan, daikon radishes for example. A rapid succession of deep and shallow rooting plants with the subsequent incorporation of organic matter will do the job and you won't have to work your mules that hard. When you plow try to lay the soil not flat, but more vertical, that will allow the moisture penetrate deeper and with the frost also help to break up the compacted ground.
When I started out here on this farm , we initially barely could get the plow into the ground deep enough for 4 inches, even with my big horses, and now we have very friable ground, but it took a few years.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

G.D.Rose says 2016-11-14 20:27:42 (CST)



Will you not form a hard pan even with your horses if you always plow or farm to the same depth? I know in my wife's garden, every few years I need to go in and break up the hard pan that is caused by the tiller that is always set at the same depth


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

Klaus Karbaumer says 2016-11-15 07:56:28 (CST)



GD. Rose, you are exactly right, even with the horses you can create a hardpan, if you always plow to the same depth and have no other means of breaking up the soil. That is why varying plants with different root systems is so important. The more pressure we exert on the ground the more likely we compact it. We can do that to the extent that the plow pan is out of reach for any implement.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

BrianL says 2016-11-15 08:59:59 (CST)



Yes, any tillage done continually at the same depth will cause hard pan. Even ill-planned tillage done with horses can cause harm.

Klaus, I'm OK with shallow plowing and it's one step toward bringing back the soil. My concern is, once I hit 4" it's solid compacted clay and that. I suspect, contributes to the flooding we see in heavy rains. So my thinking is, run a subsoiler through it to allow water infiltration and to somewhat loosen the clay. Then plow what I can and leave winter to do its magic. By spring, I can hopefully disc once or twice and have workable soil. As for leaving the overturned soil not flat, I'd like to say I'm doing that on purpose, but with the plowing I've done in this section, the clay slabs tend to land that way anyways. I figured it was fine and that it would accomplish what you suggested. The other sections of our field that I have been working on for a while now weren't in this bad of shape, but some were pretty beat up. Fortunately, they've shown vast improvement so I know this is winnable.

Obviously, there are no quick fixes to rebuilding soil. They didn't ruin it overnight and I certainly can't repair it that quickly either. But hopefully I'm doing my small part to point things in the correct direction.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

Ralph in N.E.Oh says 2016-11-17 20:26:29 (CST)



Brian, it sounds as if you are on the right track. I agree with Klaus deep rooted plants will help a lot. Sub soiling is good too especially at this time of year. The old timers would plant sweet clover to bust hard pan,even open old tile lines. I have not tried it, but if I planted sweet clover, I would use it for just this job, then mow and incorporate it back into the soil as part of a cover crop program. Perhaps even with oats and purple top turnips to also help break the hard pan.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

BrianL says 2016-11-18 07:52:57 (CST)



Ralph, I've planted sweet clover in other areas and had luck. Likewise, daikon radish is helpful. Those giant white roots start to make a dent into the clay, then when winter kills them off, if you leave most unharvested, the semi-buried root rots in the ground, putting their organic material exactly where you want it. You know you're accomplishing something when, while the first year you do it the roots you harvested are deformed, you start to harvest nicely formed, big and long daikon.

One issue we have in the areas that flood is, getting anything established, even though it is technically part of our tillable land. Invariably, if we have heavy rains and the northwest corner of our land floods, it kills off whatever I've planted and the tenacious water hemp invades in force. (Not that it affects us directly but, because Amaranthus rudis is now Glyphosate-resistant, all our neighbors who rely wholly on chemical farming have lots of it, so it spreads rapidly.)

The other issue is, a smaller part of the area toward the northwest corner is lower ground (relatively speaking here in the flatlands) so, as a result, when we do have heavy rains, the water from our Big Ag neighbor's heavily-compacted land flows over onto us, so even if our soil can handle our water-load, we're charged with being the catch basin for other people's land that doesn't absorb and just runs off with Heaven knows what. (That area can look like a high tide line what with all the corn stover from their no-till farming.) I asked our local USDA agent for ideas about ebbing the flooding we have due to run off from others and I was told that it's illegal for me to prevent any water from their land from running off into ours. Not a solution, but I knew turning into a debate about bad farming practices was futile.

My convoluted point being, still on the fence about subsoiling. I don't own one so would need to buy a single point. The tool itself isn't expensive but weighing whether there's a workaround or it's something I'll be using every few years even with best practices.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

Klaus Karbaumer says 2016-11-18 19:36:57 (CST)



Brian, since you obviously without putting in tiles on your land cannot avoid the flooding from run-off, you probably have to sacrifice some of your tillable land to allow for water-ways by putting it in grass strips. At least you can get either some hay or some pasture out of it. Still better than planting repeatedly and seeing your incipient crop being washed away.
The bigger issue is what you rightfully call bad farming practices and that these are legally protected even if it means harm to a neighbor. And unfortunately among farmers we have many who scream loudly about their property rights when they are affected by regulations but who do not mind when others are harmed. I would almost have written " farming community" but there is little community these days.It was reported in another context that somewhere in the country( I do not remember exactly where any more) farmers got into a fight about the spraying of Dicamba with the result of a murder.
Anything, even a subsoiler, which must be pulled with great force and power= great pressure through the soil has a tendency to create compaction. The subsoiler creates tight walls and a narrow strip of compaction at its tip. Plants do a much better job in breaking it up, but it takes a bit longer which is in opposition to human nature since we want to see results quickly. But look around where this quick-fix mentality has taken us!


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

BrianL says 2016-11-19 21:06:06 (CST)



The area that floods is mostly headland, although there's a stretch of that where even grass won't take for very long. Especially true when the water runoff from nearby fields contains herbicides that do a number on the vegetation.

Klaus is quite correct. The "don't tread on me" approach should be a two way street. Except it often is not. Take for example the ongoing efforts to undermine the Clean Water Act and other regs that protect natural resources that belong to all of us and serve the common good. Like Wendell Berry said, "Do unto others downstream and you would have those upstream do unto you."

Now hearing talking points like, "The Trump-Pence Secretary of Agriculture will defend American Agriculture against its critics, particularly those who have never grown or produced anything beyond a backyard tomato plant," I highly suspect the American Agriculture they speak of isn't the small scale diversified farmer.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

JerryHicks says 2016-11-22 06:30:31 (CST)



Talking about your lowland that floods, makes me think of a similar situation I had a few years back. I have a piece of bottom ground that gets flooded from time to time. The water is cutting gullies over into my field. I used my grandpa called spiles. I cut post and set them close together in the low areas. The water dropped what ever it was carrying when it ran past the post and before long all my low ares were filled in and I had captured a lot of the top soil and organic matter that the folks up stream from me were losing. By using wood that would rot fairly quickly, I person could plow over these areas in no time if they so desired. I sowed grass over mine.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum

BrianL says 2016-11-25 07:56:42 (CST)



Jerry, good idea! Same idea as a groin, which is what is used to prevent beach erosion. The posts create an eddy which breaks the flow of water, causing any material the water is carrying to be dropped into the ebb.


7 years ago via Forums | Front Porch Forum


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