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Sleighs on hills
Posted by Mptclinics in IL at 2015-02-21 13:13:41
We have a 3 ton pioneer wagon, and bought sled runners to attach to it for winter sleigh rides. The wagon is pulled by a team of large Belgians (18.1 and 18.2 hands) in pretty good condition. Our problem is a lack of flat area to pull the sleigh. Our area, even our pasture, is full of hills and slopes. We are currently building trails over an old road, but even that is like a roller coaster. I have used the hydraulic brakes many times when going down hills using the wagon/tires and a full load, in order to keep some of the load off the boys. Granted, I probably spoil them and let them off way to easy! In my defense, I am giving them more weight and using brakes less over time, as I learn their capabilities. Obviously brakes are useless with sled runners, though.

So, for those of you who use a sleigh or some type of sled on snow/ ice, how do you safely maneuver hills and slopes? I know the boys could easily handle the weight of the wagon itself, but should I only load it half way or so when using the sleds? What about cross-slopes? Even my forecart tends to slide sideways when we are on these cross-slopes, and just the boys' forward motion keeps it moving in the right direction. I could really use some advice here to make sure horses and riders are safe!
Response by Klaus Karbaumer at 2015-02-21 21:17:21
If you are transporting the public, especially paying guests, you have to use all safety precautions available. There are brakes for sleighs, if you don't have any, I'd rather not take any guests than risk anything on those cross-slopes the way you describe them. Do not forget, this is the most litigious society in the western world and many people who just got a scratch could try to sue you. Your only defense is having applied the best available practices.
Response by Mptclinics in IL at 2015-02-21 22:40:45
I have 5 kiddos, and our family often rides in the wagon. Eventually, we hope to offer the sleigh rides to the public, but not until I get comfortable with it. At this point, I'm thinking I may have to just hitch it up and try out the terrain, but I was hoping for a few tips to make sure I did that safely. I don't think ours is equipped with sled brakes. Where would you find those? We do have the runner safety chains. We just got hooked up with all this equipment before winter, and haven't had a chance to test it all out until now. I hate to miss the chance.
Response by Dale Wagner at 2015-02-22 00:58:32
I never had a problem as my team always ouut run a load of hay to the bottom of the hills here. I did have the hay rack roll off once when I ran over a rock too big on a side hill. No big deal - my dad and I both made it off the high side.
Response by Peter Nielsen at 2015-02-22 06:12:30
We had a case here last fall where a farm offered hayrides on wagons behind a variety of vehicles. Apparently, the brakes on the jeep hauling one wagon failed going downhill, one high school passenger was killed and another hurt. Can you even get insurance for that, if someone sues for negligence? Our legislature is considering a new law to require inspections for farm vehicles hauling passengers. That would sound like a good idea if I lost a family member.
Response by Mptclinics in IL at 2015-02-22 07:48:54
We actually do have insurance that covers all our wagon and carriage rides to the public, and any horse-related injury or incident to the public. It's a great policy that gives a LOT of freedom. HOWEVER, as I said, I am not offering these rides to the public until I understand how that wagon works on sled runners. I want to keep the horses and me safe too!
Response by Don McAvoy at 2015-02-22 10:46:11
Old timers up on the river bottom would let a loop of chain down in the front of a runner. Works like locking up a wheel with a chain on a wagon. I don't have hills; but it probably wouldn't help you on a side hill. I read somewhere the big logging teams watered the up slopes and level ground and would put out hay on the down slopes.
Response by Mptclinics in IL at 2015-02-22 13:26:21
Oh, I love the hay-on-the-downslope idea. I think that will be very do-able on the trails we are building. We are trying to design them to avoid cross slopes, but will still have up and down to deal with. A good covering of hay would likely work great!
Response by Neal in Iowa at 2015-02-22 13:57:37
With a few trials, I bet that you can rig a cross bar or a chain loop in front of at least one set of runners that you could lower to create more drag. You would want to apply before the speed was excessive so that the runners do not jump the "chock".

You had my email at one time (questions about working in wet areas about 2 years ago). I would be willing to offer ideas as to implementation. Do bear in mind that I have not seen a set of brakes on a bob sled, but have ideas as to how to implement.

Neal
Response by Dale Wagner at 2015-02-22 14:29:11
Not to throw a wet blanket over the fire, but I believe I'd look into buying a proper bobsled first. Verl, KMs neighbor makes bobsleds that the game departments use for feeding the elk in the Teton area. Bobsleds pull and handle entirely different than wagons.
Response by Kman at 2015-02-22 14:55:45
We always figured a team can haul their own weight safely, up hill or down so long as they can get their footing. So the sled and it's load would be safe if you don't exceed the weight of the team. 18+ hand horses should weight 1800-2000 and change. That's quite a load. Keep in mind the steepness can't be rediculous and it can't be too icy. The team needs to be in shape as well. We hauled a lot of two ton loads of hay up and down some pretty good hills without any problems. Try it. I think you'll be surprised what your team can hold back. By the way side hills are a pain in the butt no matter how you do it but you can usually shift enough weight to the upper side to navigate them safely. You'll soon get a feel for it.
Response by Dick Hutchinson at 2015-02-22 17:33:55
Scatter fresh horse poop down the hill and then run the sled down. If it freezes or gets fresh snow on the poop it will slick up. It doesn’t help if you are going back up the hill with a load.
Response by Mike Fletcher at 2015-02-22 17:43:44
We have been doing sleigh rides for approx. 20 years hauling 50-80 groups per winter. On any fairly sharp downgrades we pour wood ashes on the runner tracks in the snow intermittently as this helps slow down the push of the sleds with a big load. We always go into the down slopes with the team walking. We find a team can hold a heavy load if driven carefully, but the ashes are a bit of an added safety in the event of something unexpected happening such as harness or other type breakages. For the return trip up on the uphills we drive on the opposite side as it avoids the resistance of the ashes. We avoid side hill hauling of people for safety reasons. Happy sledding.
Response by Klaus Karbaumer at 2015-02-22 18:36:13
The brakes I had in mind we used in Bavaria on sleighs. They are two sets of iron claws over the runners connected to a rod with a crank and one could crank them down to scratch into the trail. Chains might work, too, but as Neal writes, they need to be put down early enough and I would think they have to have rather good-sized links to work well.
Have fun and good luck!
Response by Vicki at 2015-02-23 08:00:38
I have a small scoot and use chains over the runners on downhills behind my oxen. The scoot is like one section of bobsled. I don't know how a wagon on runners would handle.
Response by T Payne at 2015-02-23 09:11:25
If you are going to have trails, you have the opportunity to groom them to avoid skidding problems on the cross slopes, as suggested by the hay on the trail as one possibility. But using the trail regularly should work just as well if the snow is accumulating, together with grooming will help lots to prevent sliding sideways. If you carve a notch in the snow, as long as the banks hold up, where can that big wagon go?

Snowshoes, snow shovels, and
Snow plows (I use 3 truck tires cut and bolted together in a wedge) help me keep the hay and firewood trail negotiable in these Winter months. I have a gully I can get into and out of with loads better and safer in the Winter than any other time of year, as long as there's good snow.
Response by Mptclinics in IL at 2015-02-23 09:41:52
I'm too concerned about the trail, thanks to the hay idea. We are building it over an old road, and will have the ability to groom it to our liking. We should be able to avoid cross-slopes. The big cross slopes I deal with are in my pasture, so that will likely just wind up NOT being our route of choice.
Response by Mptclinics in IL at 2015-02-23 13:36:35
Sorry that was supposed to read "NOT too concerned about the trail." Missed that in the proof!
Response by Dan in Illinois at 2015-02-23 19:16:43
Wood ashes work well anywhere traction is needed.

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