(Note: Joe, please delete my previous attempt to post which, unfortunately, was unfinished. BTW, is there a way to go back to a post to alter it?)

I have been reading the measures that the FDA proposes that farmers take to prevent various infections from foods they grow.

Having grown up in countries where one NEVER drank tap water and food was assumed to ALWAYS be contaminated, there was a very simple solution: we WASHED all produce, sometimes with antiseptic chemicals (that purple stuff). Just the act of washing all fruits and veggies was enough to keep us safe. I still wash everything with copious amounts of water (except, perhaps, bananas), especially things such as melons where we pierce the skin with a knife, taking any surface contaminants into the edible interiors. In recent years, all the prewashed and packaged veggies (all kinds of greens) have made people lax in preparing these kinds of foods, thinking they are truly ready for the table.

Isn't a TEACHING campaign on how to wash your produce before preparation cheaper and more effective than forcing farmers to take extraordinary measures to keep e-coli, etc., off what they grow?

Well said Nora

I think educating the uninformed public would be a very good place to start. The trouble is ... most of the young folks know everything already:o)

Good point Nora! Taking responsibility for our own health and well being. What a good idea. "The problem with common sense is that is not all that common".

The problem is, the rules are generally written for the lowest common denominator. Those that don't have a clue about washing things, or cooking to correct temperatures. Those who actually think "meat" grows in plastic somewhere in a backroom at the grocery.
Farmers often bear the brunt of the system because they are the most conscientious when it comes to food products.

Not to hijack this thread, but has anyone heard where the E. coli on cantaloupes or spinach came/comes from? I thought it was wash water used to rinse the produce before packaging BUT then why in the heck do we have E.coli in water being used to wash food? Seems like an industrialization of food processing issue, not a production issue.

It's one thing for an animal carcass to be contaminated by feces it or its brethren produced but as far as I know, plants don't poop. So where's the source?

Geoff....supposedly when the produce is 'tainted' by E-Coli, it has been reported that the source is usually run-off from cattle (beef or dairy) or other forms of animal ag. I have also read that sometimes the contamination comes from field workers relieving themselves in the field. As for the cantaloups contaminated by the cleaning water, I had read that as well and supposedly the water was contaminated by animals.

And I have to agree with what Sheldon posted regarding the lowest common denominator. I know at least 3 people who absolutely didn't like certain kinds of canned condensed soups because the flavor was too strong....apparently they never read the label that states to add a can of water (rolling my eyes) I know this because I asked them "did you add the water" and they had no idea of what I was talking about "did you read the instructions on the can?" No, they never read any of that stuff and yes these particular people are literate. I can understand better if they weren't.

Maybe you folks will have better luck fixing "STUPID" than we have had in New York.

Geoff....Think rats and mice, some of those packing sheds have a good supply of them.

Tonight we picked up some grapes. We always rinse ours and boy did the ones tonight need it. My hands were literally muddy after I picked them off the stems...gross! However, I know a host of people that just eat them straight from the bag.

Sheldon, right on! I'm so tired of having to live my life based on rules made for the lowest common denominator, paying taxes that go to support deadbeats, etc.

I just read that they are NOW for the first time thinking of mandating PortaPottys in the fields for the pickers! So WHERE do you think they relieved themselves? We have always had wild animals and rats and mice and birds overhead, runoff from adjoining pastures and lots, AND plenty of insecticides and herbicides used on fruits and berries. "WASH the produce before you consume it" is as basic as it gets and would even target the lowest common denominator! They do it all over the Third World!

Nora...I agree, very simple, just wash the stuff. Something Mom taught me when I was a child, even if it came out of our own garden where we didn't "spray" etc.

BUT it is very surprising to me how many people just don't get it. I see that as one more thing that people don't want to be responsible for....I have actually heard a few people say "I shouldn't have to wash it, its fresh from the store" (again rolling my eyes).

Too many people (esp. the lowest denominator) don't read labels anyhow. Like I said in previous post...understandable if the person cannot read or write, but no excuse if they can (IMHO)

I read an article on the new food safety law and some people are interpreting it to mean farmers will be charged with keeping wildlife out of their fields. Good luck with that!

Also, I have read where they are thinking of restricting use of livestock in cultivation/weeding/being in the field of organic foods.

Exactly Nora! It's too bad that they impose all these regulations to keep stupid people safe.
And what Bret said also. They want farmers to keep animals and wildlife out of their fields. How in the world do they think they will accomplish this?! Most farmers already try to keep wildlife out of their fields, but it's impractical and nearly impossible to keep everything out. (And don't forget about the birds flying over and pooping. The fields would all need big nets over them too). It's ridiculous.

I just can't believe that "direct deposit" of fecal material by its originator (human, wildlife or ?)could be enough to contaminate a whole crop. Those are not mobile sources easly dispersed UNLESS the crap is in either irrigation water or wash water. That would be incredibly easy to test (and treat w/ bleach).

E. coli requires moisture for survival and can't survive drying out (good reason to turn the compost and harrow the manure in).

Nora, this article was on a web page I read just this morning.
http://www.agweb.com/article/food-safety_law_starts_to_kick_in_two_years_after_outbreaks/

Going from "reactive to proactive" it says. In reality it puts all the ownership onto the farmer. Biggest reason I quit petting zoo's with my FFA members when people were suing after petting animals their kids were getting sick. Then we had to offer hand washing stations, then we were supposed to create a leaving line that funneled them past the wash stations, then we were supposed to remind them to wash their hands. Ridiculous.

In ref to the PortaPottys, they along with a hand washing station with them, has been a law for several years now. However it has just began to be enforced in the past 4-5 years in our part of the country. They issue some hefty fines for violaters. If you see workers in a field, you will usally see a trailer with 2 PortaPottys and a hand washing station between them. There are some exceptions. I live in Eastern North Carolina and we grow almost any kind of vegetable you find in the grocery store. The equipment is there, but do they use them?

Now, I have run a CSA ( with up to 93 member families) for ten years and we always told our customers that the produce they get is either not washed at all or pre-washed, and they have to take the necessary measures. So far we haven't had any complaints about that. Like several others have said, it is a question of education.I understand , though, that most people have been spoiled by the produce aisles in the grocery stores, where it at least seems, that everything is ready to eat ( which it actually isn't, but looks are everything, in this case). Another reason to dramatically increase the number of small direct-marketing farms, especially close to population centers , so that the consumer has direct contact with the producer.

Geoff, when I lived in South Texas, they flood irrigated the crops there and I doubt things have changed since then. Large canal systems distribute water throughout the area. The canals are open to the environment. From time to time, you'd see a dead cow or a dead dog floating down a larger canal. Dead people turn up in them from time to time as well. Did a lot of fishing in the canals. Full of snakes and turtles and frogs as well. No way are you going to bleach that.

It always amazes me that whenever the gov't gets involved in something like this it's a certainty that the responsibility will be placed on the producer to go to extreme lengths to do something the consumer should be doing out of common sense. If people can't go to the effort of washing their fresh foods then maybe we ought to let Darwinism take it's course! :) Just kidding (sad I have to post a disclaimer!) but it makes you wonder.

It kind of reminds me of the old joke told in the Corps- A fresh young Lt and a grizzled old Master Gunnery Sgt entered the head (rest room) about the same time. Both went to the urinals and conducted their business. The Lt then went to the sink and washed his hands while the Master Gunnery Sgt addressed his appearance in the mirror. The Lt snidely remarked, "Top, at Annapolis they taught us to wash our hands after using the head." The MGSgt replied, "Really? At Parris Island they taught us not to pee on our hands."

I had the pleasure of working with a certified organic produce farmer of 20 years. He had some negative specific things to say about those of us in the industry who have not made the dedication to be "certified organic" His deposition states that many farmers don't know how to grow safe crops; that a lot of the certified organic labell is not a quality control, rather a safety measure designed to protect the consumer. His examples of ecoli and other health outbreaks included that many of these recent outbreaks were later attributed to gray water irrigation practices (mexico) and non scientific composting (colorado)
How many of us really turn our compost and measure how high the temperature gets, and for how long?
I know I haven't...
Gave me something to think about, just as washing vegetables is important, so is the farmers responsibility to protect their industry through responsible compost measures.

It's a big deal among our region's produce growers. Lots of classes, and everyone needs to keep notebooks of records of all kinds of stuff. A big one is having to test irrigation and wash water, most of which comes from ponds. It is adding expense to production, especially by mandating certain equipment be used, such as wash tables instead of pouring buckets of water over-say melons-in the field. The Amish growers are limited to non-electric equipment which narrows their choices or availability of equipment. Another issue is that now new legions of inspectors will be going onto private land.

Kevin, actually there are pretty common sense rules for any, including organic producers:
1) No head dressing( translated for the non- farmer: no direct fertilization on top of the plant if the edible part is above the ground)
2) No manure or compost application within 90 days of harvest with crops underground.
3) No manure or compost application within 120 days of harvest when edible parts of the plant are above ground.
The conscientious , but also efficient farmer knows anyway that the fertility of the soil is not a quick fix , but a long term process.
I will not get tired to say , that the regulatory work to protect consumers , but also farmers is necessary. Bad rules are a result of bad thinking, no rules are even worse. I do want to make the point, that the consumer has to do his/her part.

I agree producers have responsibilities, but there seems to be a trend of relieving the consumer of any responsibility whatsoever. IMO the aim seems to be to building towards "foolproof" results. The problem is that no amount of engineering will defeat the self destructive abilities of the average fool!

I believe many of the rules are an attempt by agribusinesses to drive small producers out of the market. Otherwise, why would organic or natural production cause so much distain in the 'bragazines' for farmers?

I agree with your assessment of the situation, John!

Grey water usage isn't a problem if it's not used as overhead irrigation.

It appears to me that the big players recognized that there was going to be some type of regulation so they made/make sure they controlled the dialog as well as directing the law making efforts so as to benefit them. That's how we get regulations that are incredibly detrimental to small producers - National Animal ID Act?

Here's a repost from a DAPNet member showing an excerpt of the proposed legislation.

"Domesticated and Wild Animals: Subpart I

The proposed rule identifies possible routes of microbial contamination of produce and sets requirements to prevent or reduce the introduction of pathogens. Domesticated and wild animals are one possible route of contamination because pathogens can be introduced into fruit and vegetable production systems via animal feces.

Background

The proposed rule balances the need to prevent contamination with the need to be practical and flexible with the diversity of operations and ensure that prevention measures are in harmony with resource and wildlife conservation efforts whenever possible. The proposed rule is consistent with sustainable conservation practices; it does not require animals to be harmed, farms to be fenced, animal habitats to be destroyed or farm borders to be cleared.

Requirements

(Proposed § 112.82) If animals are allowed to graze or are used as working animals in fields where produce is grown, and under the circumstances there is a reasonable probability that grazing or working animals will contaminate covered produce, you would be required to do the following:
Wait an adequate amount of time between grazing and harvesting any growing area that was grazed to ensure the safety of the harvested crop, and
Implement measures to prevent the introduction of hazards onto covered produce from working animals if working animals are used in a growing area where a crop has been planted. For example, if you use draft horses, you could establish and use horse paths that are segregated from the produce.
(Proposed §§ 112.83 and 112.112) If under the circumstances there is a reasonable probability that animal intrusion will contaminate covered produce, you would be required to monitor for evidence of animal intrusion immediately prior to harvest and, as needed, during the growing season. If you see evidence of animal intrusion, such as significant quantities of animals, animal excreta, or crop destruction via grazing, you must evaluate whether the covered produce can be safely harvested. For example, if you see evidence of bird excreta on a head of lettuce, you would not be allowed to harvest it."


Full summary with link to the full text for your reading pleasure.
http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/FSMA/ucm334552.htm#I

Thanks Geoff.

Joe

I apologize for the typos in my last post. That happens when I try to imitate my wife who never has to look at the keyboard while I am usually using the ' eagle' method: Look down from above, hover over it and then swoop down boldly - some call it the two or three finger method.