I was and still am planning to let my boys keep their horns, so tonight, when the vet told me that he was set on removing them, I got quite the scare. He told me that he wanted to do it just out of concern for my saftey around them, but all of the teams that I have met have not even attempted to put their horns close to their teamster or anyone else around them. I am not saying that I don't understand the fact that their horns are dagerous, but I am under the impression that a well trained team of oxen wouldn't use their horns in any sort of agression. He isn't going to dehorn them without my ok, but he would like me to write out why I would like to keep them, the pros and cons of doing such, and how to make them keeping their horns safer for me and other people around them. I would like any comments or ideas on how to make them keeping their horns safer and just a simple yes or no from the ox teamsters out there about whether or not I should keep their horns. I do want to show them, work with them on the farm, and pull a cart and sled if that helps with responses. Thank you so much. Any input is very much needed and appreciated even more.

Kaleigh

I work with horses and have never had oxen and give you lots of credit for working with them.

My thought on your post are;

The vet works for you, thank him for his concern, But you do not have to justify any pros or cons to him. I am sure there are other vets in the area that would like to have the buisness.

Maybe its a bit harsh, but that my input.

Tell your vet he don't nothing about working cattle. You need the horns to hold the yoke on going downhill.

As a retired vet, I'd tell him it's your decision and your choise, not his. End of discussion.

My four oxen have horns. My "boys" are older, well trained. Horns are not a problem.
younger cattle must be taught not to touch you with their horns. Use your goad stick or other implement when necessary. Your cattle MUST respect you.
Once in a while I get a bruise from them, if they are trying to get the flies away or some other thing, but they do not intentionally use their horns to harm anyone.
Yes, when backing up a load they do use their horns.
Hope to meet you this spring.
Have a Happy New Year.
Robin

You should remind people of your age before they instantly think the vet is a bad guy, since you did say that he said it was your decision, it appears that he is concerned about your safety.
I am 50 and have to constantly remind myself NOT to get lazy about Ren and his ever growing horns. I carry a drumstick in my back pocket since Ren runs loose on the place with an old horse and he is often following me around. Just a brush with his horns and he gets corrected. He gets plenty of praise when he is not touching me with his horns. I think of it as working with my mules or horses--I train them to step out of my way, I do not walk around them. I am the leader. I am not a hard person to get a long with for them, as long as they respect my space. Good luck!!

Never worked with oxen but don't want any cattle with horns around my place. That said, I was under the impression that horns are important in how the yoke works under some circumstances.

However, I have seen "caps" placed on horns. Don't know whether that is for safety or purely ornamental.

Here is a different perspective on the vet. It was my perspective the vet was trying to help Kaleigh make a sound, logical,not emotional decision. I did not read where she had to justify or explain her decision to the vet. I appreciate the perceived time the vet took to have conversation with a young,ambitious,caring person. This may be optimistic or idealistic but it sure beats the alternative. Good luck Kaleigh with the boys no matter your decision. Peter

Sounds like you have an honest vet that cares about you and your animals. I seriously doubt that your vet would require a written essay in order to do work for an adult.....your vet sounds like a family friend who is trying to help a kid out.

Keep us posted and Happy New Year!

My first thought it that I would be wary of a vet who would make you go through that kind of measure for him NOT to do a procedure on your animals, a procedure that is not medically necessary. This is a decision for you, not your vet. If you are going to weigh the pros and cons to removing the horns from your boys, it needs to be for YOU, not to justify it to your vet.

Wilson, my water buffalo has a wonderful set of horns, it is so much a part of his character that I couldn't imagine him without them (of course, he is a water buffalo, but lots of people remove their horns too). They should be taught from the earliest possible interactions to be gentle with their horns and aware of where you are at all times. I should never have to get out of the way of Wilson or his horns, he needs to be aware of where I am and move around me, no exceptions. "Accidentally" bumping you with their horns is truly rare, as Robin stated, it is usually from trying to get flies off of them. (a good reason to keep good fly spray in stock when you are working with your oxen!)

Another point I would like to make is that the horns on your oxen are by no means the only, or even the most dangerous part of them. Even without horns, you can still be butted, and yes, it hurts, stepped on, trampled, kicked or crushed between the oxen and say a barn wall. If a person thinks that removing the horns makes them safe, the reverse might actually be true, since you may be less likely to teach the same level of respect to a polled animal as you would a horned one, since the danger is visible and at the forefront of your thinking the entire time you are around them.

Sammi Jo

I am definately with the others on that weather your
cattle keep their horns or not is totally YOUR
decision. You need to set him/her streaght.

That being said I think no horns are much safer.
Any cows ive worked with that have horns I seem to
connect with them occasionally, sometimes with some
help from the cow, but even with those that try to
be nice. In the ribs is not too bad as long as it is
not on purpose with force but in the eye is a
different matter that you hear about alot.

Having
the horns removed from my zebu I am sure has saved my eyes. I had a jersey milk cow a long time ago
that was real nice about her horns, you could lead her with them and she would actually try to keep
them outts your face beu even her i have connected.
Of course with a jersey they curve in a heart shape
and as such are safer.
Show are your cattle horns going to grow out?

Some people reduce the problem with horns by cutting
off tips or blunting them or using balls on them.This
might be something for you to learn about in case
you need an alternative.

Cattle mature and change starting arround the age of
two. Hard to say now...
Bottom line its totally your call, make your own decision.

Please please get the input from many many ox teamsters in addition to the comments you already have here. So far, Robin, Sammi, Zebu and I are about the only long-experienced ox teamsters commenting here. I love what Sammi said about the "danger" of the cattle! Horns, IMHO, are not the issue--your relationship with them is the decider. If you have respectful submissive cattle, they will not hurt you with any part of themselves.

I say this because the dairy community has generally a very strong passion against horns; you have your steers at a dairy farm and your vet is probably a dairy-oriented vet. I experience that dairy people have a strong bias against horns. They have good reason to dislike horns; this is not a jab against dairy anti-horn panic. But I say as an ox person, that you should be aware of this knee-jerk reaction against horns and that you will encounter--you have already--encountered it. However, this bias is not the only perspective on horns backed by experience--there is a three hundred year old working cattle heritage in this country, too, and it does not share horn-fear. (Because a dairy cow and a working steer are very different animals with different temperaments.)

That is why you ought to get invloved with as many ox teamsters as you can; because they will have a different perspective on horns, backed up by generations of experience with horned steers (not just opinion.)

You are in the New England area and there are many ox 4H clubs in NH, VT, CT, and ME you can consult. I would suggest you phone Tim and Wendy Huppe at New England Ox Supply and have a frank discussion with them, as well as your 4H advisor and other advisors of these ox clubs. All over New England, and out here in the midwest too, young kids by the hundreds raise and train working steers with horns, as a matter of course; no deaths or serious injuries. (More people are hurt and killed by plain old horses just being horses, than by any working steers horned or not--just the nature of the beasts.)

Yes, you do need to know what you're doing, what to be attentive to as signs of testing or aggression, and work with your steers so horns are not a danger. Occasionally, a steer has attitude problems or personality that is not suitable for further training, and it is beefed out, but that isn't very frequent, especially not with ones started young like yours.

Your vet is looking out for you, and responding to his training and experience, from one perspective, which tells him that horns are a bad thing, and he's being responsible to be concerned for your safety. But he's probably not an ox person or knows anything about oxen.

Granted, cows with horns can be very bad news--because of cow personality and nature. Steers that respond to human leadership do not have a fraction of the bossiness or stubborness of your average cow. Especially dairy cows... But if you've had lots of steers treated kindly, trained or untrained, and cows too over the years, you know this difference.

BTW, up until just 40 or 50 years ago, even dairy cows had horns. Many old-timers in my area in Ohio showed dairy with horns, Borden's Elsie had horns, only "recently" have dairy been routinely dehorned.

My strong opinion: keep the horns, because you are training OXEN, and oxen traditionally have horns, in order to use the yoke, AND for handsomeness. Horns are part of the dignity and mystique and tradition of North American ox heritage. If connecting with that heritage has any meaning to you, try to keep the horns. Once gone, always gone. You can certainly train the horns to curve nicely inward, which looks great on holsteins. You can put knobs on if the tips are a concern to you.

In my opinion, if the steer's horns are posing a danger to humans, then the entire steer is, and it should be beefed. If it is going to be a good working steer, it's horns will not be a threat. Just like a dog: if it's teeth are a problem, it's because the whole dog is a problem.

Good points Vicki. Another consideration to throw out there that doesn't necessarily concern safety. Although I love Wilson's horns, cattle in general with horns can be much more destructive. He uses his horns to destroy anything he can, including fences. I use electric wire to keep him off of things he shouldn't touch, which helps a lot. I also keep toys out for him, his favorite being big plastic 55-gallon drums. He butts these around and sticks his horns through the holes in the end, carrying them around on his head (or bashing the barrels against the gate at 2 in the morning...) He seems to very much enjoy carrying things around on his head, very amusing unless it is something he shouldn't be packing around. I also can't blanket him, even though he has almost no hair because he uses his horns to play with the blanket and it is promised not to last.

Take a look at the oxen for sale on this site. All have horns.
My "Frank" was trained by an 11 year old girl. My "Jesse" was trained by a 13 year old girl, sisters. They were trained single and double.
My "Jed & Grey" were in a family with young children.
All have horns. I bought them already trained, since I call my self a senior citizen 4-H'er. (I just turned 69 years young). As stated by a few others, the horns are not the issue, it's the personallity of the animal and the amount of training they get. Good luck.
Keleigh, do you have a copy of the 4-H Working Steer Handbook? It may be very helpful to you. I think you can get a copy from Berrybrook.

Kaleigh: about writing out something for your vet: (I have mixed feelings about this.) My cynical side thinks he is trying to cover himself in doing something he personally thinks is a bad idea--leaving the horns. And that's understandable. But also, he probably wants you to thoroughly think this through for yourself, and that's good.

May I suggest you interview, about horns especially, the Huppes (multi-generational 4H oxen experience), ask them to refer you to the ox veterinarian too, perhaps the Winslow family in Maine, your 4H advisor, a 4H Ox Club advisor from Connecticut Wiplash Club, and include comments from your interviews with them in your written essay. Include photos of youngsters at New England fairs with their horned working cattle; you can probably find many online. Include your parents in this research and put a quote from them in your essay, too; you want your folks to feel good about horns and ease any fears they may have. (Why not submit a copy of this essay for 4H project credit, too? Maybe for school credit...)

What you are going to do to make your steers safer with horns, is:
1. to build and maintain your leadership role with them, they being respectful and submitted to your dominance,
2. by employing a three-hundred-year-old heritage of wisdom and techniques in training working cattle,
3. under the supervision and mentoring of experienced adult ox teamsters such as _____________ (fill in the names of your 4H advisor and anyone else who agrees to help you),
4. within the structure of the 4H program and local fairs.

Include a bibliography of ox training books and videos that you are using, (Oxen A Teamster's Guide, The Pride and Joy of Working Cattle, Training Oxen video, Carl Heth's video, mention this Rural Heritage forum, the Midwest Ox Drovers Association (I'm putting you on our mailing list), the Draft Animal Power Network forum (find us ox people on that forum too) and any other resources you're using,
and list personal consultants that you contact, like Robin and me.

Mention that you are adhering to a routine and a consistent disciplined schedule of training and working, and setting progressive goals for yourself and your steers.

Wish we were closer!

I agree with Vicki, that the veterinarian may be coming from a dairy point of view, but also that he is looking out for his client's best interest. He has an obligation to look out for her welfare as well as that of her animals. She doesn't HAVE to take one bit of his advice if she doesn't want to, but there is nothing wrong with his giving it. That is what she's paying him for. Yes, apparently he doesn't get the reason for keeping horns on oxen in the first place, but only he can see how this girl interacts with these animals, and how they respond to her. Remember everyone, this is a very young person we're dealing with here, one without a lot of experience. Despite all of the best intentions to learn, she has complained before of her animals rubbing her with their horns, and wondered what to do about it, after it has been allowed to happen in the first place. Those of you who are so quick to encourage her to fire him obvioulsy don't know how difficult it is to find a good large animal veterinarian in New England. How about encouraging her to to do the adult thing and have a discussion with him, telling him why it is important to keep them? Even veterinarians can still be educated, if it's only that he has it in his head that all cattle should be hornless. Maybe he does see some serious behavioral issues on both sides of the fence that are causing him some concern.

Definately seek the Huppe's or the Winslow's advice. I think that has been mentioned before too. There are also other good teamsters in the area, but you will find none better. Just be prepared, that potentially you might not like what you hear from them either. They too will want you to succeed, but they won't tell you what you want to hear, just for the sake of making you happy. Like your veterinarian, those are the people that you wnat on your side. There's nothing saying that you can't admit defeat with these animals, if you've made some serious mistakes with them, and try again with a new pair, unless you want emotion to rule your decisions. In that case no one can help you. You'll just have to eventually learn the hard way. Hopefully you and those around you will stay safe while doing it.

Veterinarian's Oath

(Approved by the HOD, AVMA 1954; Revision approved by the HOD, 1969; Revision approved by the Executive Board 1999, 2010)

Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health and welfare, the prevention and relief of animal suffering, the conservation of animal resources, the promotion of public health, and the advancement of medical knowledge.

I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity, and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.

I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.

Think i'd be more concerned about getting kicked or stepped on rather than injured by a horn

I left the horns on Fern for a reason no one has said yet. I am away all day and we have loose dogs and coyotes about. Not many years ago I heard about the calf the coyotes half killed in East Dixfield, Maine. I am not coming home to that.

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned by someone else is:
Are your animals ever going to be pastured or allowed loose with hornless cattle? Any time you have cattle with horns out with dis-budded/dehorned animals, there is a risk of injury when they interact. The hornless cows will not have experience with wrestling against the horns and could get rather damaged.

Kaleigh you have an invaluble resource, you have Terri Chamberlin! She taught me about oxen, and I think you need to speak to her. If the vet still insists the horns come off have Terri call him, and explain the purpose. You are young, but you are not stupid, only one truly know what is best for your animals in your situation. Besides it's a whole lot harder to find equipment for a polled ox, and at Fryeburg Fair in Me they won't allow oxen without horns to show. I think it limits the uses of your team. Anna

I don't know anything about oxen. I roped a horned herford bull around just the horns one time. You could almost lead him by hand within a couple minutes that way. Herefords were weighted on the horns to turn them down at a young age. I have never seen a holstein with horns; so I have no idea what they should look like when grown out. You may have to train them as they grow to get a perfect set though. A horn is very sensitive so you can correct bad behavior very gently with remarkable results. Ears would be second choice. Be gentle but firm with them.

Horns keep the yoke from slipping off over the ears.
This is important while backing or holding back a cart going down hill.

TWO horns are required in most New England pulling rings.

The only times I have been hurt by the horns (fewer than the times I have had there foot on top of mine) was when I did something stupid.
1) don't try pulling them to you by pulling on the yoke, there first step sideways is always, to where your foot is.
2) don't try to squeese in front of the ox as you unload them from the traller and they are trying to look around. A horn tip can get twisted up in your shirt and a pull by you and them to get free can rip it off you.
3)feeding by hand from a pail in front of you is not a good idear. As you bend down for more food they bob there head to get in to the pail. As I went down he was coming up and I got a horn in the edge of the eye socket, Boy did it hurt.

This is amazingly helpful!!! Thankyou all so much. I can assure you that what Heritage Farm said in thier message is no longer true, about them being aggressive with their horns. We sorted that out a while ago with a firm tap on the nose with the goad or any thing else close at hand wheneer they tried to test my dominance. I read up on what those sings are. Now they are learning to go out of their way to avoid bringing thier horns near me. I am so thankful for this thread. I deffinatley have some good arguements now thanks to all of you!!!!!

Kaleigh

kaieigh, do not de horn them. you will not be allowed in any compatition with out them. i agree with anna talk to terri. and if you are still in need of help i am still willing to come up and give you some. if your vet is any kind of vet (he or she) should know better. ona

Berta, a polled cow will whip a horned cow most of the time.

Dale, I'm not sure that is entirley true. Any of our dairy calves that have not been de-horned (because they're for dairy purposes not work)have been able to butt a cow twice thier size out of the way to get to the feed bunk, even if they only have horn nubs. from what I've seen and untrained calf can get pretty handy with their horns buds pretty quick!

Here we go again with horns!! I can guarantee that anyone can pet my highland cattle without any danger from horns.I also have a texas longhorn steer and a pair of ayrshires. None test me with horns but I am handling them daily. I have been stepped on a few times but remember-kicking and use of horns is a defense move. Stepping on your foot is not a trick that cattle can learn to do. Keep out of the way. They will sometimes try to intimidate you with horns but don't allow it.I do not abuse my animals and they know Who the boss is. As far as a vet's advice-do not remove horns just because he says so-they are YOURS not his. I would not have cattle without horns and the bigger the better for me.

I weigh in on the side of horns for working steers. Also, do talk to Tim Huppe.
I had a pair of Jersey crosses and they were pretty high energy, but horns were not something they used for hurting. They learned at a very tender age that they may not touch me with head or horns.
I got tagged by a swinging horn from another steer and the dairy people were up in arms that he MUST have the horns off. He was a Devon, poorly handled prior to my having him and second hand to me. I was inexperienced. Needless to say, I steeped right up to him (after coming home from the ER) and we worked on his submissive to my dominance stances. He never offered again.
Appreciate the vet's concern but do not give in; he needs another perspective. It will be to his advantage to learn about a different kind of bovine (working steer) anda different kind of ethos - dominance without prods or force.
Win-win.

You know I get a little upset when Dr, Vets and people like that start telling me what I have to do. It is my opinion that they are just hired employes, they do not tell me what to do!

I would tell him to just mind his own and if he wants to cut the horns off then he can just buy them. Then I would put a $20,000 price on them. Sorry but I dont get how they think they can force their services on you and then want you to pay the bill.

I would say "If you want the horns, then keep the horns, If you dont want the horns then have them cut off". Do not ever let a vet force you into something that your not sure about.

I have worked around longhorn cattle all my life and never had any problems with the horns. I have been told almost every "wivestail" possible. Never have I seen a cow stick a horse or anything like that. Infact the worse injury I have seen was when we were running the cows threw the chute to pour them and a cow broke a horn off going down the alley. I had a cow that I would walk up to and grab her horns and we would wrestle a bit then I would feed her. She got to the point that she wanted to wrestle, it was a game. If I thought that she was getting to rough I would just tap her between her horns and say "NO" and she would just walk away.

Hmmm that might be good advice to give the vet, "Just walk away".



Jim