Frank's PETA post made me realize the front porch may be the ideal place to present this idea, but first, some background. For those of you that don't recall, I teach high school agriculture. We discuss animal rights v. animal welfare in the Animal Science classes. I have always seen the animal rights view as being "too far out there". I mean, come on. Animals with the same rights as humans?

The recent tragedy at Seaworld with the whale trainer being killed, has really got me to thinking. One of the reasons the "experts" say the killer whale did what he did was that orcas are extremely intelligent animals that are kept in a confined space and don't recieve enough mental stimulation.

(Gulp) Here we go: Maybe we need a sliding scale that rates animal intelligence. Maybe some animal species actually do qualify for some "higher level thinker" (i.e. Humans) rights. Perhaps there will come a day when we look back and say, "I can't believe we used to keep "animal X" on display and trained it to do tricks for us."

I know, I know...it most likely would be taking the proverbial finger out of the dike and some people would not know where to stop, and before you know it, I'll be pulling my own plow. I'm just saying, its something to think about.

Any kindly worded thoughts?

Sounds like a clinic debate on the HP front porch!

I would tend to think that any higher level thinking animal that could be trained, could be trained to communicate. At the point the animal is expressing true thoughts and abstract thinking rather than just giving the desired cue to receive a treat then possible the animal would be entitled to more rights.
I think all animals have a "right" to proper care and to be treated humanely but I also think that must be taken with common sense. I hunt and I fish. I eat meat. I do not believe that a person can live sustainably as a vegetarian. Taking supplements that have to be manufactured is not living sustainabley. I agree with Weston Price, that the proper diet requires a certain amount of animal protein. There is more about this available from the Weston Price foundation.
It would seem that people who are against the eating or use of animals are against animals at all. If we were all vegetarians, we would be competing with animal for food. What would be the best way to keep them out of our food? Or do we eat only after they have? Then say if we don't eat animals but can use milk. In order to make milk, the cow must have a calf. At least half the calves will be bull calves. What do we do with those? Keep 1500 lb hormone driven pets around? I think that a great deal of the animal right,peta,Hsus, argument is an effect of our culture. Too many people are not responsible for their own food and they are detached from the process. We know the stories about kids thinking eggs come from cartons and steaks are made in plastic and styrofoam. More and more people are being raised on the Disney idea the the forest is a place where wolves,deer,rabbits and other creatures sing and dance together until dehumanized by man's encroachment.
I am not sure that there is a real solution to this. Vote, be active in educating folks (non-confrontationally if possible), and be a positive visible presence. I have an open house at my farm every month. Some people want to see how the animals they will eventually eat are raised. Some eat meat, but don't want to ever see the animal they will eat. Some can not even after spending the day touring the farm, fathom how I can raise an animal then kill and eat it. But all in all I think the tours have been a good thing. More people need to see animals being raised and used properly.
But who knows, maybe it will take a complete break from animal husbandry followed by a few years of starvation and what ever else may follow to give folks a healthy dose of reality.

Well let see I feel that your comment "I mean, come on. Animals with the same rights as humans?". is very close to what PETA thinks but your being to soft. Animals have more rights then humans. But PETA has missed the problem that they will and are creating. If they had their way then nobody will want an animal of any kind. By the way that they think people will just get rid of the animals because there will not be a use for them except as pets. Then the only animals that will be left are the ones that are in zoos. We will be reading "The Chicago zoo has had its 3rd calf born outside this year, what a miracle!". Yea I know it sounds far fetched but could come to that or something close to that.

For conversation sake, let's say PETA does not exist - there is no history of actions, no wackiness, no hard feelings - forget PETA. This is a philosphical discussion among the porch sitters and we're just talking about extremely intelligent animal species that demonstrated an IQ above a predetermined level. Who determines the level and how they assess it, I have no idea.

As humans, we tend to see ourselves as the superior life form. I am just wondering if maybe certain animals should not be kept for our own amusement and entertainment.

That orca seemed to me like a stallion kept in a stall. They originally bought him for breeding purposes and weren't supposed to even have him in the show, what I heard.

I don't know about you but where I come from God made man the steward of all living creatures. They are to be treated with respect and used according to God's design. Animals are food or beasts of burden..plain and simple

All the hypothetical nonsense is just that...nonsense!

As I said in the other thread... it's all about the money. The minute you allow any of this thinking, you will be creating "guardianship" for that/those animals. Something HSUS has already tried in several cities and States, unsuccessfully. Then the attorneys get to do the "guardianship" paperwork, and expect people to leave money in their wills for the animals and their children! All a bogus scam to get another attorney/client relationship, but in this instance attorney/animal/your money relationship.

You may be interested to know that the HSUS has a person in each and every State responsible for thier programs in the State. MANY are attorneys. Strange coincidence isn't it?

Greg, it is an interesting though. Jerry's point about communication is a pretty simple metric for weather or not an animal should have human rights but once you move past communication how do you define intelligence?
Every Front Porch Regular has a few stories about when critters come up with solutions to complex problems - figuring how to get unstuck when tangled up, staying calm in a frightening situation, bravery in fending off a predator, or sneaky ways of getting out.
It would get more and more complex trying to make the distinctions and rank creatures on a scale.

Todd, I like your sense of humor.

...that is, if the joke is that G-d is just as hypothetical as a PETA free world yet the concept of treating everything with respect be it food or beast of burden is a valid point no matter where it comes from.

...or perhaps I read too much into it.

Berta, God loves ya even if ya deny his existence. No humor in stating fact.

Just thought I would add my two cents worth. I have lived with and had animals my whole life, all kinds. I have seen animals display understanding and compassion at times when humans seemed to have cared less. Humans can be mean, vindictive, spiteful, petty and dangerous. I don't think I have ever seen an animal display any of these traits, unless they have been made that way by a human.

I read about that whale being kept for breeding purposes. Is still going to be kept for breeding. Wasn't intended to be in a show.

Like a stallion or bull.

I agree with Todd W. God took care of human/animal relationships in Genesis. I don't need PETA.

Thank you Todd, It says in Genesis, chapter 1, We are to have dominion over all the creatures of the earth. That's clear enough for me.

Connie I Have seen all that in animals. Seen female animals have little ones stomp,kick,eat and kill there little ones, all females can reproduce BUT not all are mothers, a normal mother will kill to protect there little ones right.

The Bible in the Old Testament was a story about a man called Abraham whom God thought a lot of had large herds of sheep and cattle they butchered for the meat and cooked it to eat, used the hides and wool for clothes their is also stories about them cooking the meat and offering up unto the Lord and he would bless them for their righteousness and for offering up unto him the first portion of the meat if you believe in the Bible you should have no problem in eating meat if you choose to, I sure love meat, Chicken, ham, steaks, goat meat, I am not to fond of mutton but Abraham and the Lord did, so long as the Lord approves of meat eating I for one am going to continue eating meat, PETA needs to take their complaints to the Lord and tell him they dont approve.

Saw a chicken play a piano one time. Pretty intelligent I guess. I'm still gonna eat chicken.
Todd W. I'm with you. God breathed into man and he became a living soul. He did not do this for any other creation. Were at the top of the food chain people,Deal with it.

I look at my work horses as my work companions.We work together to get a job done.In all work situations there needs to be someone to give direction and that is my job.I treat them with respect and expect that in return.

They also get free time.More than I get as a matter of fact and they also get more time for meals and for being themselves than I do.Where or why could there be a problem?

Stallions and bulls become difficult when confined too, as we all know. Especially 'round this time of year, when Springtime induced hormone levels are highest.

Nowhere in nature is there a preferential treatment in place for highest level of horniness, or highest level of intelligence, other than might-makes-right.

Should human beings who have high IQs have rights unavailable to human beings with mental disabilities?

I think we are forever hopelessly stuck on this issue in the zone of reasonableness. What is reasonable. What is practical. What is the best we can do, all together. That includes the input of animal rights activists and radicals, but it doesn't allow that minority to dictate to the population at large, any more than any other agenda of any other elite minority should dictate to all their methods and practices.

PETA and HSUS function as religions, complete with preachers and offering plates. The offering plate is their primary objective, and they make fools out of well intentioned "parishoners" who dole out the bucks after their heartstrings are pulled, to pay the "administrative" expenses .. without doing very much to contribute to general welfare of animals, and in fact often doing way more harm than good.

There is no excusing PETA for the plight in which they have placed many horses through their efforts banning all horse slaughter. It's part of the overall agenda to force veganism .. the underlying religion PETA is built upon, that they evangelize .. on all.

They should be ashamed of themselves for promoting cruelty to horses that way. But as is the case with most folks who believe their way is the only way, the best way, and all who don't follow their way are some kind of lower life form .. it's very difficult to break through to some level of understanding that might help bring about a change of behavior through greater understanding. Mental health professionals have the same problem treating schitzophrenics who fantasize that the universe revolves around them, and the voices in their heads.

I see each animal specie to be as intelligent as it needs to be to survive and breed. It's ability to communicate is also as good as it needs to be within its own specie. Please note that mankind's attempts to communicate with other animals is mostly limited to how we communicate with each other and it is THEY who can understand US to varying degrees and that's a plus mark for them. We, on the other hand, are not particularly adept at understanding them in their own "languages."

Hmmm... Could that mean that we are not quite as intelligent as we think? ;o)

As far as communicating with 'dumb' animals, I tell folks my horses are smarter than I am---They know several words of English-Whoa, come gee, swing haw, trot, etc, and I don't know a damned word of 'Horse'!

Just a personal perspective, but I believe most folks do have a hierarchical standard when it comes to animals. I had a border collie that was welcome every where I went, Loved my horse just as much be he was not allowed in the house! lol.

However, I strongly agree that there is a distinct difference between animal rights and human rights. The problem is that in our lovely world there are people who act like animals, and some animals have a very human quality! lol

God set this up right! We just have to maintain it right!

Once again, just in the spirit of a good hearted conversation: I'm not talking about animals raised for food. And I certainly understand that there are extremely intelligent anomalies in every species. If I had a chicken that could play the piano, he (or she) would be the last one I ate and I would most likely miss the music afterwards.

As far as God giving us Dominion over all other creatures, if we look at history, there was a time about 200 years ago when some folks lumped people from Africa in that category and felt slaves were no better than animals. About that same time, we were treating Native Americans in a similar manner. As recently as 100 years ago, we felt women did not have have the intelligence or decision making skills necessary to have the right to cast a vote. I hope we all look back on those times now and shake our heads wondering, "What were those people thinking?!". Regardless of your political beliefs, culminating and proud proof of that change of ideology is the fact that we now have an African American man as president and his closest competition within his political party was a woman. What once were held as cast iron beliefs eventually cracked and changed for the better.

All I am suggesting is maybe there are some animals that are so intelligent that we are unable to provide the necessary environment for them to thrive "under our dominion" and for this reason, we should leave them where God placed them.

Again...just a good hearted conversation and I enjoy reading everyone's opinions.

Todd I am with you and am like Debbie . Don't need PETA

Any animal that can be controlled by man is basicly STUPID. And a horse is about the lowest on the list for intelligence as man can work them to death.

Greg, there have been, and will always be, people who think they are better than other people, and given the opportunity, would make slaves of us all while calling it something else. But, don't forget that Africa was heavily involved in tribal warfare at that time, and that those black people were SOLD to slavers by other black people who were glad to get rid of their enemies caught in battle, and get paid, to boot. Which is no excuse for white people taking advantage of that situation. All human beings behave badly and we're as capable of behaving as badly now as in the past. There is still an active sex slave trade, and plenty of women are still slaves around the world. And, according to a National Geographic article from not too long ago, there were still black people making slaves of other black people in Africa. That stuff is still going on, even if in a somewhat different form.

I would like to add that, in my opinion, all the communist countries are propped up by the enslavement of the majority of their peoples by an elite ruling class regardless of race.

I for one have never owned another human being nor do I intend to do so. Now the wife at times thinks she does, but I beg to differ.....

Come to think of it, I don't believe I've ever met anyone that owned slaves. Anybody here ever known a slaveowner?

My teenager does say I'm a slavedriver most of the time.....but I don't think that counts.

Nope teanagers saying your a slavedriver dont count. My teanagers said the same thing 10 years later they thanked me. said I helped when the started to work for someone else, along side of another young person that dident have to work at home.

My boys were out of school yesterday for some teacher meetings. I left them a list of chores on the way to the office. A pretty fair days worth if they got after it. They started whining during chores lat night. I told them my goal was when the kids sit around with friends discussing mean fathers I get voted as the meanest.

They cleaned the stalls for the milk cows and beded heavy with straw, put out salt and mineral to the beef cows, strawed and fed the wiener calves, strawed down the pigs, scrape the slush off the drive way, fill the wood box, and work the ponies.

They did all but the scraping with the pony team. Made boys and kids better. Good thing those ponies are higher level thinkers and capable of keeping those boys out of trouble. KM

I'm surprised Geoff hasn't chimed in to call anyone with any faith in a higher power a virtual idiot. I'm sure he'll come along eventually.

The difference between abuse of an animal and working an animal is kind of like the difference between abusing a child or disciplining a child. Some people, generally those educated beyond their intelligence, can't tell the difference.

Bret4207. Well put. Chastisement comes out of love and punishment out of anger. My dad knew the difference, but at the time I didn't. But I always knew why I was getting it.

Midnight at the oasis, take your camel to bed.

Isn't President O'bama a higher power?

I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.

Seems like we can't ever talk about anything non-horse related on this site without it morphing into a diatribe on God, global warming, Sarah Palin, Nais, Obama, or PETA.

Greg, I think the idea is one at least worthy of discussion, and I'm glad that you are asking your students to think critically and deeply. I had a teacher in High School who tweaked my perspective on many ideas. Some beliefs changed others were reinforced. She was a true educator, and I am eternally grateful for our time.

I do believe that some animals demonstrate not only an intelligence, but also a depth of soul that makes their keeping for our amusement questionable.
I am almost certain that God (if we must use her as our framework for this discussion) intended for animals to eat each other as part of nature's design. That is not what Greg is getting at.
The question is, Did: God, Allah, Buddha, and David Koresh intend for tigers to jump through flaming hoops.

Stephen,

Great to hear from you and thanks for the on-target response!! Just a quick follow-up question: Shouldn't "her" be spelled with a capital "H"? Talk about tweaking perpectives!! :)

How are the grapes growing?

~Greg

Greg,

Yep, capitalize that one for sure.

Grapes are good. Just waking up, and will maybe bud out in the next 3-4 weeks. Just bought a flock of Baby Doll Southdowns to run in the vineyard (hopefully year round). We've spent the last two years raising the head heights up to above 35".
We'll see how it goes.
We made about 100 cases of Pinot Noir last year. Still in barrels, and will release it around Christmas this year. Tasting really good, but still a ways to go. Lots of fun. Did you get some vines in the ground at your place?

Stephen,

No vines yet, but they are still in the farm plan. I came across two Baby Doll Southdowns this past fall that I plan on grazing in my orchard. I guess great minds think alike :)

~Greg

Animals are perfectly intelligent for their needs. Instead of grading animal intelligence to human, why not the other way around? It's humans that have caused so much large scale destruction of the planet. How intelligent is that? We have the ability to be intelligent but seems like that part of our brains are rarely used.

When ST HELENS blew her top she is one of the biggest poluters, and large scale destruction unequal. Also some of those hurricanes. No human caused these to happen Blame mother nature

You missed my point, KC Fox. I'm not going to quibble about man versus nature.

Just saw this thread and had to comment.

I don't think that humans are endowed with any human-specific rights at birth and neither are animals.

The "god made us" argument is just an excuse to elevate our self worth. There are plenty of humans that don't deserve to occupy the planet - but because they're "human", we afford them some kind of special status.

As far as Mt St Helens goes, that stuff will happen as those are the very forces the created the environment that allowed us to eveolve in the first place. Hum

Sorry Bret, didn't see your post directed at me until too late. But you're wrong, I think belief in a higher power is not a "virtual idiot", it's just an idiocy.

God didn't write Genesis, man did as well as the rest of the bible. And god didn't give anyone dominion over anything. Those are old Hebrew tales told around the campfire trying to understand how we(humans) came to be. Get over this self-importance stuff - you're made of the same matter as every other living thing. You know "from dust you came and to dust ye shall return."

Interestingly, Jesus never supported tax exempt status for the church. Only the church did. Start paying up.

Holy smokes, Geoffy, what do you do, spend your nights going back over old posts looking for fights?

Thanks for calling me and anyone else with faith an idiot. That validates my opinion of you.

You sure enjoy deriding us Christians (and Jews and Muslims) for our belief in a God that created the universe. You do know that atheism is a relatively recent phenomenon in the history of mankind? Isaiah was a prophet who lived in the 700s BC, pretty smart guy because he listened to what God had to say to him. In speaking of the God of the universe, he said (from Isaiah 40:22) "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth and its people are like grasshoppers." He knew the world wasn't flat, approx.1500 years before Magellan circumnavigated the globe. I'm not the kind of person that has to have the last word but you seem so focused on giving Christians, in particular, a hard time. The most dynamic Christian I know, btw, spent many years as an avowed atheist.

First - Officer Bret, you directly brought me into this by making claims about what I thought further up in the thread. I just wanted to oblige you in your need to know what I thought.

Second-
Atheism is a recent phenomena? Where did you get that and how can you possibly know that everyone believed in a deity until recently? The act of not believing requires no organization, church or leadership.

I end up deriding (and I wouldn't really call it that) christians in particular because you all bring it into every topic - politics, horse stuff, death of an animal ...... I know, you'll say "because god is in all things"......

Plus, there are a slew of self-righteous unchristian christians, some on this very site. And, If there was a god, he would have stricken these folks right out of their front row seats on Sunday AM. Hipchristians like hypocrite.

And now only smart people listen to god? FYI - a circle isn't a necessarily a sphere (look at a dinner plate) and doesn't show any evidence that Isaiah knew the world wasn't flat - if you believe those are even his words in the first place.

It's one thing to go from being an atheist to being a christian but once you've been a christian and renounced it, there ain't no going back. The veil has been lifted from my eyes. I grew up a devout catholic, went to catholic school, was an altar boy, lay reader and went to seminary to be a member of the clergy before I saw the light. So, I might have a bit of experience with the "mystery of the faith". When you understand the context in which christianity developed it changes your perspective.

Brett - if I validated your opinion of me, then I know I'm on the right path.

It's a shame that Virginia Gal's book of religious mysticism didn't also mention that the Sun was at the center of our universe. Maybe Galileo would not have been charged with heresy by the Catholic Church and sentenced to house arrest for the rest of his life for suggesting the same. A simple oversight on god's part maybe?

Christianity - the original anti-intelligence movement. What was the name of that forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden? Tree of Hate? Tree of Foolishness? Tree of Porn?

It's simple things like that, VG, that make religion such an easy target. And the target is getting bigger every day.

Stand tall geoff. We shall overcome.

Hate, you guys just love to hate, don't you? How very, very liberal of you. Completely typical too- "Only we, the enlightened, can judge."

Hypocrisy is your hallmark.

Archeological evidence proves that the most primitive societies to the ancient empires believed in dieties. You're not the only one angry about the hypocrisy, self-rightousness and the way that churches are run like businesses nowadays. God hates that stuff. And, we who call ourselves Christians needs to humble ourselves and repent of this behavior. Religion is something that man has made out of what was supposed to be a relationship with our Creator.

VG, a few thoughts:

The fact that ancient peoples believed in Thor, Zeus or the Great Spirit does not make those dieties, or yours, real. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Second, your relationship with a diety, imaginary or not, is not the problem. Believe and worship at your pleasure. I challenge you to name one single religious freedom you have ever lost. Pray where ever you wish. Read your book where ever you wish. Handle serpents and drink poison without harm as your book says believers can do. The problem arises when believers like you want to legislate their religious dogma upon others. Then we have a problem. Believe it or not but an entire section of our society does not give one wit about what is written in your little black book of tales.

Bret, please point out to me where my post shows hate, liberalism (I'd really like to know as a card carrying Republican...gasp!) or hypocritical. The only hate and namecalling is in your posts. Typical???

Godless- "Christianity - the original anti-intelligence movement. "

Sounds pretty hateful to me. It lacks liberal thought, that is the ability to accept that others don't think as you do. Yet you set yourself as an example of a free thinker. Hypocrisy.

Open your mind, then you'll drop that Republican garbage.