People write in about the loss of an old horse, mule or dog to old age or accident and there is always a great outpouring of sympathy, condolences, etc. That is for an invidual animal... after the fact. The critter is already dead. But let an organization like PETA, The Humane Society, etc display equal empathy for the animal world in general, try to prevent suffering of animals still alive, and they are considered a bunch of meddlesom bleeding hearts. Seems inconsistant. Take it one step futher: Suppose you knew Old Dobbin or Old Shep was going to die in a few days, would you ship him off to the nearest packing plant or medical laboratory so you could recoup a few bucks on your investment? I doubt it. What it comes down to, I think, is that we all love our individual animals but not animals in general. That is the difference between us and the "do gooders" out therewho are willing to stand up and fight for a bunch of critters they have never laid eyes on and have no emotional attachment to. Their fight is based entirely on principle not personal involvment with animals. Food for thought

I love my wife, not yours.

This could be a whole can of worms you're opening, but I'll jump in.

My experience with the PETA folks is they're often basing their principles on what they've been told, or read about, with very little 'real-life' experiences and facts. That said, they do seem to stand up and make a fuss about what they believe, maybe doing some good.

Your post seems to say there are two sides to everything, right? I've been the recipient of some heart felt sympathy on this board when I lost a good horse couple years back. The conversations I've had with PETA members have all involved them trying to convince me the errors of my ways for eating meat. Compassion goes a long way toward being human. Mike

I think it is a personal thing, I don't like some city slicker telling me how to manage. If they want to gather up all the old broken down and unwanted animals and keep them that is fine with me. Some people eat horses and cows, chickens,squirels and so on. If you don't thats your business, If I do thats my business. These people have too much time on their hands, Grab a hoe and raise a garden and stay out of things that aren't any of your business. Next it will be cruel to work animals.

Peta makes me puke,along with a long list of other do-gooders.They preach their beliefs and insist that you believe them too.Only their beliefs are right and yours are wrong(according to them).They won't shut up and keep lobbying until they get some city-slicker political make-no on their side who figures they might get some votes from other make-no city slickers.There are dangerous groups just like them all over the world.One such group in the U.K. has tried to get sport fishing banned because fish have feelings and catching them with a hook was cruel.
They generally have no concept of the consequences of their actions if they were to succeed in getting their way.
As a whole they are selfish,narrow-minded ,self centered and self-serving.
They travel the world from one protest to another with absolutely no regard for the disruption or damage to the lives of the people they are protesting against.They have even resorted to physical attacks on people get headlines for their "righteous" beliefs.
The "Right of Free Speech" is their weapon.
The "Right of Self Defense" is mine...care to join me?
Wars have been fought for less.
...Kirk

p.s.Next post I'll try to tell you what I really think.

for Donnie Larimer:There already is a group out there that puts forth the belief that is cruel to use animals to work for us.We should use machines and leave the "poor" animals to live in peace.
go figure...Kirk

My gripe with PETA is that they seem to prefer no human involvement with animals at all, even domestic, unless the animal is not asked in any way, to contribute to its keep. They only want animals to exist in nature, which is a complete hypocrisy to me, because nature is the cruelest place to be on the planet. Nature is where you get eaten alive, where you starve to death, where parasites and mange turn you into a moth eaten skeleton before you finally die of starvation. Nature is where you get skinned alive, where your parts are gnawed off as you are still conscious, where you freeze to death if you don't starve first, where you die of dehydration after dreadful suffering, where you probably won't die of old age, get the point? Nature is no place to hold up as a sanctuary of life. There is little that people have ever done to animals that isn't done in nature on some level, and worse. I love the natural world and accept the cruelty therein as part of the cycle of life and death, but it's not better than what I can do for my own animals, even if I ask them to earn their keep. PETA people are hypocrites like the rest of us and deserve no roost on the pedestal. The organization has done some good bringing to attention serious animal cruelty on a large scale but they've also done a lot of harm.

HSUS and PETA is NOT about HELPING ANIMALS! It is about throwing people in jail and making new laws that in effect take away animal ownership from individuals and give it to goverment or private orginizations. These laws passed have driven many animals to the verge of extinction that were otherwise finding a way to survive in our human world because its not laws that save species but economics.

Bottom line, THATS what peta/hsus DO. Beat up on people.

We porchers love OUR animals and have some compassion for others.
I dont see compassion for animal owners with peta or hsus and generally their love for animals are only to keep them in the spotlight. A very wise person once said REAL HEROS JUST DO THEIR JOB.

PETA has published its long term goals and one of them is to eradicate all domesticated species and all animal ownership.
Most of the people here actually OWN animals and rural life sooner or later makes people realize that
people are a part of nature too and the world IS big enough to share with species who wish to. Us animal owners actually dedicate sometimes a major portion of our lives to caring for animals, and find spirituality with those species that we can bond with.

Bottom line with ME is my amimals are MINE! NOT YOURS, not PETAS not the GOVERMENTS and they can just keep their noses outta my business unless invited. THIS is something PETA and the HSUS just dont get.

....and lets not get into how the hsus has given money to terrorists that bomb reascersh centers.

WElll, Frank, there are people in this world that just want to whine about something. IF it's not one thing it's another. It's because they have a lot of time on their hands and aren't struggling with making a living. These are airheads who have learned all they know about animals from Walt Disney movies and they know that food comes from the store. They are the rank and file of PETA and USHS. It's a measure of the prosperity of this nation that folks have the idle time to worry about how other people are living their lives. My whole life I've been against cruelty to animals. Not just mine, Frank, ALL animals. I kill and eat animals, but always try to keep their suffering to a minimum. As Virginia Gal put it, nature's way is far from humane. A quick death at man's hand is one of the least cruel ways for an animal to die. In the utopia the 'do-gooders' imagine fish and fowl will have the right to vote in democratic elections and will recieve old age pensions. Are they offering to foot the bill?
ed

Virginia. What in nature is comparable to Michael Vick"s treatment of his pit bulls that did not live up to his expectations? They were electrocuted, hanged, drowned and body slammed to death. These acts were done, not by another animal needing a meal. These acts were done by a fellow human being, just for the hell of it. He didn't simply grab a gun and shoot his "losers" ... instead he went to a certain amount of work and effort to rig the gallows, wire the electric chair or whatever. Finally, if what we do to the rabbit or dove is no worse than what the fox does, then we are no better than the fox.... we have descended to their level on moral grounds.

I need to amend my last statement: In 95% of the cases where one animal kills another it is out of necessity...because of hunger. There is only one species on the face of the earth that consistently kills and torments animals for entertainment, "sport", fun, etc. I will let the reader figure out who I am referring to.

"Airheads?" I've never been called that before. For the record, I am a 73 year old, white anglo saxton male, semiretired surgeon. I still work parttime six days a week. I am an Army veteran and have voted a srraight republican ticket all my life. I get up at four am every day and feed my team, the dog, cat and anyone else that looks hungry. I am a strict vegitarian and take no prescription medications. And I do contribute to several animal rights organizations. Maybe I really am an airhead.

There is no room in this world for the likes of Michael Vick.
No room for PETA or other such groups either.
However there is lots of room for all God's creatures...Right next to the mashed potatoes.
...Kirk

DUH! Frank that was so easy a cave - MAN could do it!

Frank, Go talk to Michael Vick. To sit here and talk to us about animal treatment, cruel or otherwise is like preaching to the choir. I would be willing to bet that 99% of the folks here on the porch treat their animals better than city folk treat their fellow man. Would we stop along the road and help an animal in need? YES. Yet in the local news a young woman was raped in broad daylight on the sidewalk while hundreds of "people" drove by doing NOTHING. Now, I ask you, Who treats animals (2 or 4 legged) better? Do some research on PETA. Find our how many animals they have rescued, re-homed, or just put down because they were too busy to be bothered. http://www.consumerfreedom.com/article_detail.cfm/a/134-7-things-you-didnt-know-about-peta or this one http://www.petakillsanimals.com/ I think one should do their homework before pointing fingers.

It's all about the money. Nothing else. Both PETA and HSUS know that their party line attracts millions of dollars from folks that should know better. The same folks who send money to televangelists for other reasons. Neither has a shelter or spends a cent on the individual care of animals. Just follow the money. That's all it's about. The last time I was made aware, the HSUS had an annual budget of $140M. Where oh where does all that money go?
PETA, through it's support of the ALF... Animal Liberation Front... should have the same FBI designation as the ALF. Domestic terrorists!

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Now where did I leave that sweater? I wonder what the nice folks next door are talking about......... Oh my goodness!!

Oh, Lord. What a thread!! If one of my horses is suffering, I'll take it out. Same with my dogs. But not for entertainment like Michael Vick.

Had a lady try to convince me my cows and sows felt grief when their offspring were butchered. NO!!! They don't care and that is the purpose of the creature.

Had another lady try to tell me my Leghorn hens got upset and flew around squacking cuz I was taking their 'babies' when I picked eggs. Just didn't know what to say, so laughed. Found out quickly she wasn't kidding.

Another lady took offense that I made a pregnant mare work.

peta, hsus, alf-- democrats-- - different names- similar agenda-- try to control our personal lives

I'll line up on the side of the meat-eating, responsible stewards of the animals and land we tend. I farm because I love it and want to pass it on when I'm gone. Doesn't make sense to use harmful practices on the animals or the land.....Don't need a bunch of Left-Wing Lunes to tell me that!

I've plenty of sympathy for the human that loses an animal. Having lost a good plenty and taken out my share as well, I won't lose much sleep over someone else's animals, but won't stand by while one suffers needlessly.
I've got plenty of lead for sorry animals and PETA/HSUS....jus kidding....

I have a two year old team of jersy steers that are as close to me as any other pet I've had (except the dog I grew up with). If one of them broke it's leg, I'm pretty sure I'd eat it - or if he would not be overly stressed by shipping, he'd go to the local slaughterhouse for a few dollars. Why wast a good carcass? (Before you ask - no, I wouldn't eat soylent green but I sure as heck think we should be composted rather than wast a good field for fancy cemeteries)

"Finally, if what we do to the rabbit or dove is no worse than what the fox does, then we are no better than the fox.... " Who said we were and how do you define better? We are an animal that may try to prevent or limit the suffering of others; a trait that is pretty damn rare in the wild. As for the animal that kills more than it can eat and tortures smaller creatures for fun, you must be talking about feral cats.

and Chuck B-
careful who you lump together; I mostly a democrat 'cause I want the government out of my private life. Shouldn't matter who I marry or what I abort.

Only God has the final word on who you marry or who you abort!

I've raised Boxers for over 20 years...NOT a puppy mill, never more than 2 litters A YEAR (total, not per female). Never had more than a male and 2 females at any given time. Each dog that was bred, was raised by me and was a much loved family pet (first and foremost) until their death and believe it or not, the average age of my dogs at the time of their death was 14 - had 3 that lived to be 15, 16, 17 -- almost unheard of for a Boxer! My point --- a woman called me under the guise of wanting info on buying a puppy. After several minutes of questions and chat, she asked me if I cropped my adult dogs ears. I answered yes at the time, (no longer do so, due to cost and effort). She proceeded to tell me of the suffering and pain that the dog went through to have their ears cropped. I listened and tried to explain that my vet's procedure was so efficient, that the dog came home without any bandages, cones and absolutely minimal pain, in fact, none that was apparent. The discussion, of course, was one sided, so finally I asked her if she was married, she replied yes. I then asked her if her husband was circumsized, she said that was none of my business. I then told her that my dogs ears was none of her business either, but that at least they were put to sleep for their ear surgery, unlike her husband or any other baby boy that goes through "their" procedure! She hung up on me. My animals (livestock and pets) have shelter, food, medical care, love and companionship. I eat meat and love to fish. I'm Republican and right now, I'm doing a good bit of suffering myself, but I know that as with everything else in life "this too, shall pass"!

Frank said: Suppose you knew Old Dobbin or Old Shep was going to die in a few days, would you ship him off to the nearest packing plant or medical laboratory so you could recoup a few bucks on your investment?
No actually I wouldn't 'ship' them off, I would haul them myself. As long as I knew they would be humanely handled at the end. Would I feel bad? Yep. Would I lose sleep? Yep. A few years ago I posted about donating a draft mare to Iowa State and got blasted by a few individuals. Since I don't have unlimited resources I have to pick and choose.
To me the 'do gooders' fight is based on lack knowledge and common sense. And they are pretty quick to lay blame and accusations, but what do THEY do to support the living animals they are so quick to defend? Oh wait, we're supposed to turn everything loose, right?
Yea, Berta, my first thought about something playing with it's living food is my cats. I ALMOST feel sorry for the mice.

um Frank, you need to learn more about PETA and HSUS, they are not about caring for animals, they are all about raising money to eliminate animal ownership and animal agriculture.

Personally I will put down my own companion animals when the time comes. But I surely do not see it as my business to tell my neighbor what to do with theirs.

Wolves and cougars are known for 'surplus killing' they do it when it is easy to kill and kill again, such as deer in deep snow, or sheep. They kill far more than they need to eat. Also wolves start consuming before the animal is dead.

Janet

Frank admits he's a vegetarian and is against hunting.
I think you've been waisting your time, and ours, on this board.
There are horse lover sites for you.

Everything I know about PETA and HSUS I've gotten off the internet. PETA openly advocates elimination of all meat from your diet...they don't try to conceal their goal. What is interesting is that a strict vegitarian diet is advocated by the American Dietetic Association for health reasons alone.You can check that out on the internet. These are a bunch of dieticians/nutritionists who study what foods are best for people. So by going vegitarian you will be more healthy, live longer, have a clear conscience and best of all, not have to listen to screwballs like me.

Animal "rights" is a world view, basically an assuumption religious in nature, that believes animal life and human life is of the same value, no difference between them; therefore it's morally wrong for humans to "use" animals. All are equal in that view. It is in contrast to a biblically-influenced view that human life is unique because it was made in the image of God with moral capacity, and that humans are given responsibility to steward animal life humbly, but that animal life is not of the same value as human life.

So what you observe is a clash of two fundamentally opposed value systems and world views with different moralities.

Frank- yes, you are.

Your 95% figure comes from the wild animals that are starving hungry when they hunt, so of course, they kill and eat it. But, when a predator species isn't hungry enough to eat, they will torture animals. Ask anybody who has sheep, or chickens that run loose. Why do PETA people worship the prey species: the lion, the wolf, the eagle? Why don't you care about the mouse, the rabbit, other prey species for their own sake, not just as food for the predators? For the terror stricken animal being chased and dragged down, and if lucky, shaken in the right place so its neck is broken sooner than later, that experience for that animal is as bad as anything some ignorant fool can dream up in his backyard. Btw, I'm a vegetarian now. I also raise meat for other people because, until the lion lies down with the lamb, eating meat is not wrong.

Frank, I am confused? Do you or don't you own a draft animal?

Also, tell me, as your a physician, in a physical job such as I do and eat 4000-6000 calories a day to maintain my 6' 185lbs weight, how in the world can I get enough calories and protein by being a vegetarian.

I still have not seen a vegetarian with the muscle mass that I have?

I still have not found work boots that work as well as leather,

I still have not found work gloves for most applications that work as well as leather

I still have not found belts that last as long and work as well as leather

I have not found any better seat covering yet better than a sheep hide.

I have not found a more economical and enviromental brush mower than a goat.

I have not found a more economical and environmentally sound solution to mow grass than a cow.

I have not found a more economical and enviromentally sound solution to food waste and scraps than a pig, also great for turning compost.

My animals exist because I give them purpose, they wouldn't survive a month if I turned them loose.

Just because it works for you, doesn't make it right for me Frank.

Frank, what in the world are you doing with a team? If you're so partial to these radical ARF's is that not a contradiction? Maybe you'd better turn your animals loose and let them go back to their natural state.
I've got to go hook up a team and feed my herd of beef cows now.

Bottom line. If groups like PETA win it will be because people who raise and use animals refuse to think logically and make some changes in their methods. If we keep acting as we are now I am afraid that they will win. If we are willing to change just a litle we could take the wind out of their sails.

Vicki, you are 100% right!

I didn't want to get involved with this, but I just have to add my two cents. First, I want to say that I have no problem with vegetarians, as long as they stay on their side of the fence. If they want to live without meat, that's fine with me. But, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to try to ban Hunting, Fishing, Trapping, the Working of Animals, etc., etc., etc..

On another note, this talk of whether you're Democratic or Republican makes no sense at all. Each party is as crooked as the other. They (sweeping generalization. There are a (small) few decent politicians left, mostly on the lower levels of gov't) don't care about the constitution or the perfect law from which it came. Also, both parties are working with and for the SAME PEOPLE! (look up the Hegelian Dialectic.)Sound farfetched? Do your homework! I could go on and on.

And now, I want to say that I am NOT intolerant, BUT, instead of arguing about what WE think, we should look to the Constitution. Again, I am not intolerant, but I think that anyone who does not want to follow the Constitution TO THE LETTER, does not belong in this country, much less in our GOVERNMENT, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

Lastly, please don't anybody chew me out. Just think on what is written here.

Just wanted to say also that as a Hunter and Trapper, I know that humans are NOT the only species that kills for sport and not from hunger. Frank, have you ever watched a housecat hunt? What about a farm dog? Bobcat? Coyote? Otter? A pack of Wolves? All of these animals kill way more than they can eat, for pure "sport".

Like Jordan G, I thought twice before wading into the swamp. Probably ought to rethink it now but I am already typing.

What we choose to eat is our own personal decisions. And luckily we get to choose whether we hunt or fish or whether we use draft animals. We get to choose based upon the freedoms we have in our respective countries.

Now then, I think we need to turn our attention towards something that PETA and HSUS are working on now that would have tremendous repercussions to us all. That is the simple reclassification of horses from livestock to companion animal. There are all kinds of reasons why you would not want this to happen. Look this up on the Internet, and then lets discuss this.

As for Frank I., he is not the enemy, he understands the desire to keep and use animals for draft and pleasure. He just chooses not to eat his. No one should be allowed to abuse or mistreat animals but it is fine line we walk when we travel down the road of deciding what is abuse or mistreatment.

Now for my own soap box. Have you noticed all of the horse resucue people popping up all over the country? They go to the auctions and buy up any cheap horse that they can. And then peddle it as if they saved it from the slaughterhouse. It kills me to read their ads asking for hay donations for feed and then maybe a $2500 donation for support of their rescue. They seem to me to be the new era of oldtime horse traders hiding under the sheepskins.

The thing that I don't like about the PETA folks and their "kin" is that they also decide which living things are worth saving and which are not - they just choose the critters with warm eyes, furry coats, spinal cords, or warm blood ....

Do they believe that a tapeworm LIVING inthe gut of a dog is willing to give up its life for the good of the dog? They would (and did say) treat the dog and kill the worm - isn't the worm alive too? And isn't their mantra "all living things have a right to live"? They aren't even being realistic about what it means to be a living organism on this planet. AND don't even get me started on how eating plants isn't "killing a living thing". That's life.

Vicki. Wish I had said that. Hell, I can't even spell "vegetarian" correctly. With that I will put this subject to rest. It's been interesting. Thanks.

Electrocution - plenty of animals get struck by lightening every year.
Hanged - that's pretty comparable to getting strangled by jaws around the neck, which is how many animals kill.
Drowned - Crocs grab their prey and drown it.
Slammed to death - not so different than having a larger animal jump on a smaller one with enough force to knock the wind out of it, or a mountain goat falling off those steep rocks. It happens.
Is the difference in intent? Maybe. But, to the animal that is going through it, it's the same, isn't it? Still suffering before it died? Nature is a downright nasty place to live and I'd like to see a PETA person acknowledge that fact before trying to take all our domestic animals away.

Didn't think of this at first but was wondering Frank if your pets are vegan as well? They (and many others) are most likely eating some of the animals you don't like to see go to slaughter.
I can't believe you'd champion people like that on this board, especially when they would have you not own or work your horses.

it seems ironic to me that the poor nations of this world are trying to get animal protein into their people to improve nutrition (and cognitive and motor development of children) while the overfed rich nations are declaring that animal products are not necessary. Beware those 'physicians groups' which are not made up of primarily physicians but non medical people and a hand full of physicians with political agendas.

A lot of the (now rather old) information citing red meat is bad for us is based on simply drawing associations with red meat and the rise of certain diseases, while ignoring other aspects of the diet (such as the rapid rise of the use of sugar in particular corn syrup) in the diet. We now know that sugar contributes to heart disease and diabetes.

The other aspect being overlooked is how we raise our meat has changed. The meat and milk of pasture raised ruminants is 5 times higher in congugated linoleic acid (CLA) which has been found to be instrumental in reducing the incidence of diabetes, heart disease, obesity, and certain types of cancer. Meat and milk from ruminant aninmals is the *only* source of CLA in our diet.

I once heard a Public Radio interview of a woman from Ethiopia who was in charge of women's health issues in her country. They were discussing the incidence of breast cancer in Ethiopia. Prior to the 90's it was almost unheard of. But recently the incidence had exploded. The PBS interviewer was determined to blame the 'western diet' in particular the eating of meat on the increase in breast cancer. The woman refused to have her statement twisted into something she could not agree with. Finally she pointed out that the problem with breast cancer never previously existed in the Massai who are herders of cattle, sheep, and goats and eat meat as the primary food in their diet for breakfast, lunch, and supper. When the interviewer persevered but what then could be the cause...she pointed out that perhaps it was the birth control pills that were handed out 'like candy' in the 70's to the women who now were having a high incidence of breast cancer.

We certainly know the truth has been with held from us before. A meat deficient diet results in people who are more complacent and less willing and able to stand up on their own two feet. Perhaps there is a hidden agenda?

Janet

Told you that you were opening up a can of worms.
I'd sure like folks to be a little nicer to each other on here. I think before entering, there's an invitation not to make personal attacks on others. How 'bout we try to remember that? Mike

Janet, You have got to be the most intelligent woman I've never met. You never cease to enlighten this board.

I can honestly say there are only a few people here that I put faith in what they say to be the truth, you are certainly one of those few. Thank you for your contributions....

I thought I was finished with this but apparently not. I started this whole donnybrook so I guess I have to finish it. Yes, I am a died in the wool, 100 percent, card carrying vegitarian. My dog and cat are not... have not yet figured out how to get them to like tofu. Ihave a team and expect them to at least partly work for their room and board. I don't have all the answers but I remain strictly apposed to animal cruelty which, in my mind, means inflicting pain and death on a creature for entertainment, sport, etc. That, again in my opinion, includes eating meat. Now before you all jump on me, please read the report on vegetarionism bt the American Dietetic Association, It's on the internet. Again, these are experts in nutrition and diets. These people are scientists in nutrition. I don't think they have been bought off by PETA HSUS, The Cattlemens Association, The Hog Producers of the U.S. or any other party on either side of the fence. They are neutral on the subject. This study was published in July of last year. Read it and draw your own conclusions about the necessity of eating meat. After you have read the study, you can tell me I am nuts but not until then.

Frank, perhaps you need to re read the American Dietetic Association website. I found these recommendations here: http://www.eatright.org/Public/default.aspx

and read up on the ADA recommended healthy eating for men, women, teens, and children. the ADA recommendations were chuck full of recommending low fat milk, cheese, and yogurt as well as lean meat (beef, lamb, pork, poultry, and fish) to all age groups except infants under 6 months. What they did do was provide guidelines on how to supplement protein and fat in the vegetarian and vegan diet, but no where was a vegetarian or vegan diet being recommended as preferred over one with lean meat.

So perhaps we need you to post the specific link you were reading that said a vegetarian diet was preferred.

I do have some issues with some of their recommendations. for example under advice for young men they recommended eating more poultry and less red meat with the assumption poultry is leaner. That is not necessarily true at all. It depends upon what cuts you are comparing and also how the animal was raised, and what kind of preparation was done. Some cuts of chicken and turkey can have more cholesterol in them for instance, than certain cuts of red meat. Grassfed animals are typically much leaner than grain fed, and the fat composition is different. A chicken breast at McDonalds is pumped full of sugar, fat, and gluten making it a horrendous choice over a lean cut of beef. If the ADA was truly enlightened they would be pointing out these important differences.

incidently I would be a very sick person if I followed the ADA guidelines and consumed the dairy and whole grains like they recommend. I am very allergic to all wheat and wheat products, as well as all dairy products from the cow. I found I am healthiest if I avoid eating grains altogether. Contrary to what the ADA promotes, Grain is not essential to good nutrition. There are numerous populations around the world who lived healthy lives without grain in the diet.

Lastly I presently have 2 sons in the Marines, who I am proud to say are very well self educated in nutrition. Both have excellent PFT (physical fitness scores) but the younger son has had a perfect score (300 out of 300) for the past several tests and has not been beat in the 3 mile run since he joined two years ago. Both will tell you proper diet is essential to physical performance and adequate lean meat is essential to improving their phyical test scores.

Janet

Janet. We are not on the same sheet of music. My reference is at http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357 . Try that and let me know what you think. Incidentally the Army is now issuing vegetatain MREs. I don't know about the Marines...check with your sons about that if you are interested.

Frank is right, it's not the PC thing to say but people have known for at least 100 years that eating animal products causes disease and shortens our lives.

I think people should be able to choose what they eat, but people need to know the truth when the consequences are so dire.

Best friend was a teacher and she said you could always tell the kids from the dairy farms and the hippie kids from the commune and it had nothing to do with how they dressed. The dairy farm kids were tall, muscular and had good teeth and the commune kids were not. This is not a judgement, just something she noticed.

well Frank, it seems to me that you are reading into it what you want. Here is the opening sentence from your link: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."

TO me all that statement does, is simply say if you choose to eat a vegetarian diet, it is possible to do so and meet your nutrient requirments. That statement IS NOT promoting a vegetarian diet as superior to a diet that includes meat. Also note the careful choice of "may provide health benefits" rather than a more committed stand. This tells me they are not confident that everyone will find that a vegetarian diet is healthier. Also note that their definition of a vegetarian diet did not exclude dairy products. Elsewhere in the site, dairy products are actually an important part of their vegetarian recommendations as they provide some essential fats and amino acids. For the 20% of the world that cannot eat dairy products some other animal source has to be included.

The link you provide is consistant with the rest of the ADA site. They are not promoting a vegetarian diet, simply accomodating vegetarians by providing information on how to properly balance a vegetarian diet.

Yes the Marines also offer vegetarian MREs. They are simply accomodating those who choose to eat vegetarian, and not promoting vegetarianism. It seems some of you have trouble understanding the difference between recommending vs just simply accomodating dietary choices.

I cannot find the exact quote but elsewhere in the ADA site was a statement That individuals vary as to how best to meet their dietary requirements, and that no one dietary recommendation is appropriate for all people. Why is it that only vegetarians seem to think it is necessary to make the entire world vegetarian?

Janet

while the Marines do offer vegetarian MRE's neither of my sons know of anyone who is a vegetarian.

Dean show me the research that says that eating meat and milk from grass fed animals causes disease and shortens lives.

There are important differences in the nutrient value of how meat is raised and which cuts you are eating, and how it is prepared. There is good research on the CLA content of grassfed vs feedlot fed meat and milk that shows that CLA has important health benefits in reducing heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and certain types of cancer.

All the research I am aware of that concludes meat is the cause of heart disease simply draws associatiions without distinguishing these important differences, and do not separate out other dietary choices such as increasing use of sugar and hydrogenated fats in the diet via prepared fast food.

Janet

Janet, I'm sure that you are a lot better at reseaching on the web than I am. If you really want to know you can find it. If you don't want to know it wouldn't matter what the evidence says anyway.

as far as those who feel it is wrong to kill a prey animal and eat it, I have to say you just do not understand the role of each species in the ecosystem. Yes we humans have our role too. Prey animals such as sheep, cows, deer,elk, are designed to multiply beyond the capacity of their environment while predators keep those numbers in check. When predators are lacking in the environment the prey animals destroy the ecosystem, wind up starving as do other species that depend upon that ecosystem to be healthy. All animals are either designed to eat other animals, or be eaten. Hunting and consuming of meat has an undeniable long history in human development. Physically we are designed to catch and eat meat. It amazes me how some people are completely blind to this. As far as the humanity of killing, ever kill a lamb? done right the lamb remains relaxed and without distress. I see no double standard in taking good care of my livestock and then killing them to provide food for myself and others.

I have no issues with those few that find they are healthier if they do not eat meat. As I pointed out I am healthier if I don't eat certain types of foods like grains and dairy products from the cow. But that does not mean that I think everyone should stop eating grain or dairy products. I see this as a unique problem I share with just a small percentage of the population. I do not expect the world to accomodate my special dietary requirements, nor do I see any reason I should impose my special needs upon anyone else.

Vegetarians otoh seem to think they need lots of company to support their eating preferences, and like to spread a lot of mis information about food to try and scare people away from their preferences. This seems rather disingenuous to me.

Janet

Dean, you are copping out. Please show me the research that says people consuming lean grassfed meat are more likely to have cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and obesity.

Janet

Thank you, Janet for your well informed, well thought out and well articulated part in this discussion on the consumption of meat in the human diet.
ed

Janet,

Thanks for posting! You have a wonderful way of presenting facts. BTW- meat is the only foodstuff that provides the exact amino acid profile that humans utilize. Vegetarians have to get the necessary amino acids out of several different sources.

Lucy

Janet and Lucy,
Thank you for your posts. The world needs more people like both of you.
I came across an intersting website last week. It is www.humanewatch.org it's a website and watchdog organization designed to track and analyze the activities of the HSUS. I hope it will open the eyes of the HSUS contributors as to where their hard earned money is really going, and it's not to help the homeless kitties at the shelters.

Back when I was bodybuilding and powerlifting, I had many friends that would eat nearly a 100 lbs of meat in a week. Not saying they were healthy..... Just putting it out there....they were very strict with their fat intake and yet still found the proper cuts of meat that kept them within their guidelines. They were always talking about increasing creatine levels. I never paid much attention to all that stuff....Maybe that's why I never made it to the nationals??

Dean I would like to know where you got that informtion so that I could read it as Mayo clinic doesent say that. Looking forward to that info thank you for your help.

I don't know any vegetarians and wonder, is it
true that vegetarians are Scientologists?

John, I don't know any other vegetarians beside myself. I don't even know what a Scientologist is. I already said I was a Republican...is that the same thing?

John...I know a vegetarian and she is not a scientologist. Nor does she try to impose her dietary choices on others.

Frank Ise....no, a Republican is not the same as a scientologist, although a republican could be one, so could a democrat, independant etc. Scientology is not a political party.

Janet, thank you for saying much of what I was thinking but am unable to articulate very well.

Response by Dean P. at 2010-03-04 10:16:25
Bottom line. If groups like PETA win it will be because people who raise and use animals refuse to think logically and make some changes in their methods. If we keep acting as we are now I am afraid that they will win. If we are willing to change just a litle we could take the wind out of their sails.
---------------------------

Well, actually I think they have already won. THEY
have already brainwashed our children at school. Dosnt matter what we do or change. Its not about logic so throwing facts arround will accomplish nothing. Its like a religion.

Didja ever notice there's always some vegan or anti-gunners or anti-fossil fuels type around to tell you how to live your life, but the pro-meat, pro-gun, pro-fossil fuel crowd never gets uppity about telling them how to live their lives? That always amazed me. Just like 99% of the time if you find a pro-abortion type they'll be anti-death penalty. Kill the baby but let the murdering scum live. I could never figure that out, but it never fails.

Things like that show the difference between types of people- those that just want to be left alone and those that are intent on forcing you to accept and change to their way of thinking. Pro-freedom vs. anti-freedom.

Frank, I have no problem with you being a vegetarian, the problem I have is that your views on how "we" should live go against God/mother nature/the laws of nature/thousands of years of human nature and experience. Pick which ever one floats your boat.

Do you Drive a car Frank? How about all the animals and bugs you kill going down the road? Let mice run free in your house? Or do you put out traps or let that evil carnivore cat of yours do your dirty work?

See no matter how you live your life, you are going to kill or injure some other living creature. To tell others not to do it makes you a hypocrite, intended or not.

As for a health life style, I have spent a year in okinawa japan, considered to be one of the healthiest population on earth. Their secrete, they don't stop being active and they eat in moderation. They still eat meat, I didn't meet any okinawa vegitarians. But I did meet a pearl free diver in his 80's and many farmers in their 80's/90's still going out every day and tending to their plots and animals. The Kobe beef is probably the most unhealthy beef there is but they still ate it, just in very small amounts do to its 40 dollar a pound cost. Most places would serve 2 or 3 strips weighing no more than 2-3 oz for a meal with the balance in rice.

My computer access is very limited as are my computer skills, but I was able to find a wealth of nutrition information that I hope you will take time to investigate. I am planning to spend a lot of time learning from it. I started out writing down certain web sights. There is a huge array of information availabe. To get to it go the google search engime and search for animal based diet and human disease.

I don't care what you choose to eat. It is a very important issue in all of our lives. I just want people to be able to make an informed decision.

Dean, I know there is a lot of information out there. the question is, who is supporting that info? Is it an animal rights group like PETA or some offspring of theirs? or is it coming directly from a university where the research was conducted complete with references?

I do know there is some research at credible universities linking meat to cancer and to heart disease, but as I pointed out this work is clouded by the fact that there are other possible correlated causes of these health problems (such as consumption of hydrogenated fats, corn syrup, use of birth control) that are indeed also a part of the lifestyle of the study group the effects of which were not dissected out. So when they studied meat consumption, they were studying the effects of all of those dietary choices. When comparing meat consumers with vegetarians, are you really comparing just the consumption of meat, or are there many other differences in the lifestyle? Chances are populations of vegetarians consume less or no sugar, and hydrogenated fats, and might be less likely to use the pill (for women). So many of these studies compared not whether or not there is meat in the diet but a whole lifestyle which includes so much more than just meat.

IMO the only valid research is that which compares the consumption of lean grass fed meats consumed by health concious poeple, without the consumption of high levels of sugar or corn syrup, and without the confounding effects of the pill. To my knowledge no research of this kind exists.

What we DO have is research from a multitude of credible state universities that CLA has been found to REDUCE the incidence of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, and certain types of cancer in labratory animals. The meat and milk from ruminant animals contains CLA, and and grass fed livestock contain 5x more CLA than feedlot fed animals.

Important note in the information below, synthetic CLA has some negative side effects NOT found in natural forms found in meat. probably half the info on the web about CLA is about the synthetic form being promoted as the next magic weight loss formula.

a general overview is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjugated_linoleic_acid
http://www.eatwild.com/cla.html

looking for the scientific papers?

http://fri.wisc.edu/clarefs.htm#GeneralReview

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/suppl_2/111S

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/275/3/R667

how can it be that meat is causing cancer when it is found to contain a powerful anticarcinogen? likewise how can it be that meat is causing heart disease when the CLA in meat prevents heart disease?


Janet

What is a semi-retired surgeon of 73 allowed to do?

I just do physical exams on military applicants at the induction center Monday thru Friday. Saturday I do othopedic exams at the
VA hospital. No surgery or anything like that. On Sunday I get on the computer and try to stir up the natives with my off the wall ideas. Apparently it works.

First - is longevity the best measure of human health? If so, then research shows that calorie restricted diets are the way to go (reduce calorie intake by 25%). But this is pretty impractical.

Second - as most human nutritionists will tell you, it's "easy food" that is causing the problems - whether fast food or canned beans. Not lean meat.

Third - unfortunately I think the magic of CLA is being overstated. The levels necessary to have anticarcinogenic effects would require drinking gallons of hi CLA milk and 10 pounds of high CLA meat per day. This information comes from researchers (friends of mine) working with and promoting the heath effects of CLA. Raising animals on pasture/hay etc is good because it's the right way to raise/treat them. That's all.

Human nutrition researchers have muddied the water so much now that we might never get it cleareed. They say "this is bad" oops "now it's good". This diet is bad for you, now the other one is bad. You'd think they were working on nuclear fusion. People have been eating for as long as there have been people - most of that time without instructions.

on the lighter side...........

Q: Doctor, I've heard that cardiovascular exercise can prolong life. Is this true?

A: Heart only good for so many beats, and that it. Don't waste on exercise. Everything wear out eventually. Speed up heart not make live longer; that like say you can extend life of car by driving faster. Want live longer? Take nap.

Q: Should I cut down on meat and eat more fruits and vegetables?

A: You must grasp logistical efficiencies. What does cow eat? Hay and corn. What are these? Vegetables. So, steak nothing more than efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to system. Need grain? Eat chicken. Beef also good source of field grass (green leafy vegetable). And pork chop can give 100% recommended daily allowance of vegetable products.

Q: Should I reduce my alcohol intake?

A: No, not at all. Wine made from fruit. Brandy is distilled wine. That means they take water out of fruity bit; get even more of goodness that way. Beer also made out of grain. Bottoms up!

Q: How can I calculate my body/fat ratio?

A: If you have body and you have fat, ratio is one to one. If you have two bodies, ratio is two to one, etc.

Q: What are some of the advantages of participating in a regular exercise program?

A: Cannot think of single one, sorry. My philosophy: No Pain...Good!

Q: Aren't fried foods bad for you?

A: YOU NOT LISTENING! Foods fried in vegetable oil. How getting more vegetables be bad for you?

Q: Will sit-ups help prevent me from getting a little soft around the middle?

A: Definitely not! When you exercise muscle, it get bigger. You should only do sit-ups if want bigger stomach.

Q: Is chocolate bad for me?

A: You crazy? HELLO Cocoa beans! Vegetable! Cocoa beans best feel-good food around!

Q: Is swimming good for your figure?

A: If swimming good for figure, explain whales to me.

Q: Is getting in-shape important for my lifestyle?

A: Hey! 'Round' is shape!

Well, I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions you may have had about food and diets.
AND....
For those of you who watch what you eat, here's the final word on nutrition and health. It's a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting nutritional studies:

1. The Japanese eat very little fat
And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat
And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

3. The Chinese drink very little red wine
And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

4.. The Italians drink a lot of red wine
And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

5. The Germans drink a lot of beers and eat lots of sausages and fats
And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you!