It will be hay season before I can serioulsy start looking this year, so might not make it for this season, but I am going to try and get my hands on 2 items and wonder how prolific they are out there. I have already been looking on the general search spots and not coming up with a lot.

1) Small mower. McD no. 9 with a 5' sickle or smaller (maybe 4 1/2)
2) Small dump rake maybe 6'-8' I know they used to make this one horse size, but don't know if they were prolific.

I figure even if I make a team latr, I can always use or sell the one horse stuff, so not backing up too much.

If you get a number 9 mower a 4.5 ft bar is pretty common. The five foot is probably the most common. If you start with a 4.5 you can always swap the bar out for a 5 or 6 foot later if you get a team. Dump rakes are very common around here. Where are you located? I am in Northern Kentucky. I recently bought a number 9 mower with a 4.5 foot bar for 75.00. Of course it needed some work, but I have bought all new guards, clips and sections, as well as ordered a dolly wheel and a few other parts to put it to work. I plan to fix it so that it can be used with one or two horses interchangeably.
I have several dump rakes and if you were close I can always find them here. I bought two last year for a couple of Amish friends for 50.00 apiece. You an put thills on the rake like was original. That way if you want to use a team, you slide the thills together and they make a tongue.

How do you set the mowers up to work for a single or team interchangeably? Also, what do dolly wheels on a mower help with? Have you ever seen a 4 ft. bar on them or is 4.5 the size that would best suit a single? I think I am learning more by trying to work a single than I would have with a team. There are so many challenges to do the same job.

What size dump rakes would you set up for a single?

Here is a general question about mowers. I am trying to get my hands around maintenance and upkeep on them as well before I jump in neck deep. How long will the bar stay sharp with mowing maybe 10 acres total each summer? What are the wearing parts on the mower and what do you have to do to keep it sharp and up and running? Thanks.

A good mower is worth from $660 to $850, depending on its condition. If you buy one that needs a lot of parts and repairs, a new tongue and stuff, you will have that much into it. Gears and wheels etc are all to be considered. The price I am saying is what one that is ready to hook on and mow all day. Putting a dolly wheel on a mower has its disadvantages too. The actual tongue weight on a #9 when it is mowing is very light. When you lift the bar, it is heavy, but when mowing and someone sitting on the seat, it is easy for any team to handle. I question that a single horse, unless you have a big! one can handle a mower for very long. Mowing is a tough job if you have any vegetation at all. Of course, this is all my opinion.

Will, I have seen mowers with as small a bar as 3 feet. What is important is that it come out even as far as guards go. I would start with the larger size bar something in the 4 to 4.5 range before I tried to go smaller however.
I am putting a tongue truck (dolly) wheel under my one horse mower to take the weight off the shaves. A man in the seat will help some, but I am not that heavey and even a cinder block hung under the seat doesn't help me much. I intend to set this mower up for using either a single or double by putting a pulling board in front of or just on the dolly wheel and bracing it back to the stub tongue behind the wheel. This board will have clips on the outside for shaves and a clip in the center to pin in a tongue. I have a small area near my house that I have been mowing with a scythe and think a one horse mower would be good for. I want to use it with a team to clip some of the hill side pasture behind my house. I think the shorter tongue would be good for this. I like engineering on this equipment and this mower is a good project.
From my experience I get about 6-8 acres cut before my sections need sharpening. I try to keep one knife with sharp sections in the barn and one on the mower. That way instead of stopping to sharpen sections, I can pull the knife, put in a new one and keep cutting. Then I sharpen both knives in the evening.
There are grease zerks at each wheel,the cutter head( the inside end of the knife) and I have one on my pitman. I tried the sealed bearing pitman and like the older style better. Depending on what you are cutting, you should get that 10 acres cut and be able to sharpen or change sections only once a year.
I would recommend getting Lynn Millers Mower book and the Haying with Horses book. There is a lot of good stuff to learn in there. My Amish friends have borrowed mine so much I think I will give it to them and buy new ones.
As far as dump rakes any of them can be set up for a single. You will be in the seat and can dump it when it becomes a load. You have to use you own best judgement. They made self dumping ones but I like dumping the hay when I want. It will help you to make your windrows straight if you can put it where you want it,when you want it. I have some haying videos on my website, TheJerrysFarm.com , but I dont have any videos of singles working. There is however a good historical video from England in about 1910 or so that I have a link to on my site that shows how haying was done then. They used a lot of single horse equipment and it shows the dump rake very well. As well as a single to a tedder and a hay wagon. They brought in a nice load with only one horse.
Back to the mower, keep a couple of sets of extra sections, bolts or rivets ( I use bolts),and an extra pitman rod in storage. I'd say beyond that, jump in there and try it. I cut hay with a scythe for a year and raked by hand with pitchforks. We pole stacked it loose that first year. Then bought a number 9 and still raked by hand but stacked it on a frame. Third year I bought a New Idea side delivery rake, still loading and stacking by hand. Fourth year traded for an International tractor type rake and rebuilt a hay loader (Giving much thanks and praise to God) Still stacking loose on a frame . Fifth year built a hay barn, and am putting in the tracks now going into the 7th year on the farm.

single horse mowers were 3 1/2 ft-- around in mid mo- the old farmers call them cemetary mowers because that is what was used to mow the cemetary. i dont think 1 horse can pull a 4 1/2- 5 ft fast enough to cut. i think there would be too much drag-- but ive never done it either. i have one small one that has a tongue that i used with a team of haflingers and it worked great- my older neighbors told me that when they were mowing , they had one man sharpening sickles for 3 mowers-- and it kept him busy-- i never asked how long one would last. but im sure that older stemy grass would be harder on a sickle than alfalfa or lezpedeza.

Thank you Jerry. I have a good friend that is good at rebuilding mowers and I beleive he will be able to fashion me a one horse set up when I get ready. Do you not worry about your dolly wheel hitting a hole and throwing you forward creating a safety hazard? I weigh about 200 lbs., but I'm not a huge guy. Tell myself it's mostly muscle, but the older I get the less of that I have:). Anyway, what I was going to get to is I still want to learn as much about this equipment ALL of it as I can. How it works, how you maintain it, and so on. I would like to buy one rebuilt to start with, but I want to know all abou tit so if it breaks and the obvious upkeep- I am not hindered and can work on it on the spot or make it last for years.

I am sure my friend will be able to show me how to sharpen the knives and keep everything up to par.

Can't wait to check out your videos.

Had some other seperate questions about haying that sparked my interest. In collecting loose hay, is this for cattle or horses? I have always been worried about loose hay that stayed out in the weather molding here (GA) and then being unfit for horses. How do you handle this?

Also, neat that you are cutting by hand with the scythe. What does a scythe look like? Is it a long blade on a pole like the grim reaper? Same as a sickle? I know it had to be labor intensive and slow going, but I did find it interesting and would like to hear more about it. I am just fascinated with all of the 'old ways'.

Will, I haven't worried to much about the dolly wheel throwing me, but then my ground goes from pretty rough going, to pretty even. I also stand and lean back against the seat alot rather than sit in it. After a lot of mowing it is comfortable to straighten my legs some.
As far as the hay, We feed loose hay to both horses and cattle. Have not had much trouble with mold. I get a lot less mold in a stack than I do in bought in round bales. I just fed out a stack of alfalfa,orchard grass, that had been in the stack two years. It had a spot of mold twice the size of my fist. The stack lasted over a week feeding 30 beef cattle, six horses, a milk cow and calf. I hauled the spoiled hay off in a wheel barrow. I don't get any waste off the hay that is stacked in the barn.
I like the scythe but can get alot more with the number 9. I can scythe about 1 1/2 acres a day. Have had 3 men in the field scything and we made pretty good time and dropped about 5 acres a day. I have used the Austrian straight handle scythe and the "American" bent handle (snathe) scythe and I like the American style better. I have one with an Ash snathe and one with an aluminum snath that I use. I plan to make a jig from the one with the ash snath so that I an copy it and bend some more like it. It takes some doing to find a snath that fits a particular person. As far as what it looks like, the handle or snath is about as long as from my chest to the ground, about 5 feet. It has a slight s curve to it and two small handles called nibs that you hold to while swinging it. The blade I use is about a 26 inch grass blade. I also use a cradle some and last spring we cradled our own wheat. The tobacco will be sold tomorrow then I plan to thresh the wheat and take it to mill. An Amish neighbor has a mill and will grind the wheat for a share of it.
I use the scythe a lot to mow under my electric fence. We use rotational grazing, moving cattle and horses every day. I have found I can mow a swath 4 feet wide and a quarter mile long in an hour when trimming the fence line. We also still use the scythe to mow a few patches of hay that are really just too small to bother hitching the team for. I usually scythe from 7 to about 11 eat dinner then we rake it that evening, turn it the next morning, then the third day we make a hay hausrl. That is we take two A frames that look like two ladders but A shaped, lean them against each other and drape the hay over the rungs of the ladder, then continue to build up the sides until it makes a stack with an A shaped opening through the stack. These are stood up so that the opening is toward the prevailing wind and allows the wind to pass through the stack. This hay cures out well and is feed to the milk cow, and sometimes the work horses. I also mow around my garden and drive way and stack this for hay in the same way. We don't waste much.

Jerry, you're description is just what I need. I'm going to try mowing a couple of acres this spring, by hand, and stack it. I don't need much hay for the ponies but I've never done this by hand before, and would prefer not to waste any of the hay that goes into the stack. Maybe obvious to a brighter bulb, but do you leave the hay on those A frames until you feed it out? Sometimes, those old scythes have a long blade and sometimes, a short. Is there a specific purpose for the short one, like trimming fence lines?

I don't usually leave the hay on the racks, but you can. I have in the past when not able to get to it. I have used these type racks also to cure some alfalfa that got rained on. It seemed like every time I went to work this alfalfa it rained so I used the A frames and it cured out nicely. It was the last cutting and I wasn't able to get back to take it off the frames and decided to just feed off of them. The hay was just as green colored inside the stacks as when I stacked it. So I know it can be left on the frame. It is best to try to get the top of your stack larger than the bottom with as few dips as possible. The large top will help to shed water if you plan to leave it on the frame. The dips will catch water if you aren't careful.
As to the scythe blades, the shorter ones are usually called brush blades or ditching blades and the longer ones are grass or hay blades. I would recommend using the shorter one if you are not familiar with the scythe.
If you stand the scythe up beside you with the blade up and the handle toward the ground, the first nib should be at the point that your hip bone goes into the socket, not the top of your hip. Then the next nib should be about the length of your arm from the the elbow to the outstretched finger tips. You can plan with it beyond this to find what is comfortable. When I pick the scythe up to use, I like the lower handle tipped up a little more than the upper handle. Then to use the scythe I rotate my body from the waste swinging the scythe in an arc around my body. Don't lift the blade, this carries your cutting to your left side and leaves it in a windrow. For a beginner the shorter blade works best and helps you keep the tip out of the dirt. Also remember that you are never wasting time when you stop to sharpen the blade. It needs to be razor sharp and I sharpen it about every five minutes.
I only sharpen the bevel side of the blade, then run the stone once or twice across the back of the blade to knock the burr off. The Austrian scythe is easier to set up and use than the American scythe, but to me it is too whippy. It almost seems too light. Once you find a snath that fits you and get the nibs set right, keep it sharp and I believe you will find that the American scythe does just as good a job as the Austrian. When I first started I was gonna throw mine as far as I could and leave it, but by the second year I had figured it out. I know really enjoy the scythe and use it a lot. I also like the scythe with a "field modified" cradle attachment better than the old cradle for cradling grain.

I think there could be a real opportunity for you to write and article on RH about this type of hay gathering and curing. Also more detail about the scythe, sharpening, and use. Or better yet do a video on it. I know I would be very interested in it. Now, truely I won't do all of the hay this way. I would like to use the horses and mower, but for small areas and for the knowledge I would LOVE to see more.

Jerry;
When you said that you stacked loose hay on a frame a couple of years ago, was that the same as the A frame drying racks or something more permanent?
Did you put up hay this last summer? I remember seeing your photos a couple of years ago for the hay loader and a loose hay stack but I don't remember anything for this past year.

I second that statement. But it would be best with photos, too, showing the actual work with the scythe in addition to illustrating the different parts and how they fit to the operator. Jerry, if you are game, I would love to work with you on it.

Joe

Uncle Joe, I would like to try to write something up like that and I will email you at the address above. I am glad someone is interested and might want to use this.
To the skeptic, I didn't keep hay out two years on an A frame. I make a frame sort of like a pyramid. I use 4 2x4s that are wire together so that they stand up. square and come together at a point. Then I take long poles on that are wired to the sides of this pyramid about a foot to 18 inches up from the bottom. I like them to stick out at least 2 feet past the 2x4. Then I lay smaller poles across these to make a lattice work inside the pyramid and across outside edges. We stack hay on this,tromping and packing it as we go until we get to the top. We make the top bigger than the bottom and try to save timothy to make the to with. We lay it on thatch style and rake it with a pitch fork so that it sheds hay. These are the stack that can be seen on our videos and what I fed the 2 year old alfalfa from. We have tried it with and with out a tarp and I prefer not using the tarp. If the stack is built right it will shed water. Being off the ground, air can move under and up through the stack and it keeps very well.
I wouldn't want to try to make all my hay with a scythe, but I do like using it for the hay we make from the hard to get to places. I will look through my pictures because I know we have some of us scything the first year we put up hay loose and a few of scything since. I also have a few of stack making and of the different type stacks we have used.

Jerry. Look forward to the article and photos in an upcoming RH, glad to hear you are going to do that. Also, really enjoyed your videos on your site. Make sure you video some scything this hay season and add it to your vid collection on your site. Let us know when it's up!

Will, especially with your size, don't pass up a number 7 mower either. Many liked a number 9 because of its lighter toungue weight but this was because the average man at the time was around 135 pounds. You would counter balance a number 7 quite nice. They are the same bar, just different frame castings. The 7 also has internal wheel sprag clutches instead of external ones, less likely to rust up.

Also as Jerry stated, get a tractor style rollabar rake. I know they cost more but it is worth the money in the beginning.

My new idea hay loader was a god send

My wife and I stack outside, with a wire cable trolley supported with 2 24' A frames. An electric hoist does the lifting. It works well even here in the wet indiana weather if you make the stacks properly. We use no frames or poles and have had no problem with wind even though we live just a few miles from the countrys largest wind farm.

I have a european scythe and much prefer it compared to the american scythe(sorry jerry) unless hacking at large brush then the heavy american scythe works very well. The european scythe takes practice to draw the edge but you are rewarded with a razor sharp edge. I to use mine for trimming electric fences, quicker than all but the largest of weedeaters and quiet as well. A great book on the subject is "The Scythe book"

Where's the best place to buy a scythe?

Wasn't the no. 9 and "upgrade" to the no. 7? I know there are a lot more no. 9's out there it appears, but that may be just like you said maybe not as many folks were "big boned" like I am:).

On the scythe, there may be another, "better" source for them, but I found them being sold at Lehman's on the web. You can buy the scythe blades, and american style handles there.

Thanks, Jerry, for the details and I will await the article, too. And, I'll check the archives for more on the subject.

Jay;
How does your wire cable trolley work with making hay stacks? I went back and looked at your previous messages about making loose hay and getting the hay on the stack seemed the hardest part of the operation. Does this help unloading the hay stack too?
Thanks
Madeleine

If you want the european scythe I would recommend scythe supply. They have a website too and tons of info on scything. If you want to go with the american version, I would recommend first, farm auctions. I pick them up for 5 to 10 dollars. I have bought them from antique stores for about 12.00. I would also recommend if you go with the American that you start with the aluminum one. It is really hard these days to find a good wooden snathe and very hard to match one to the individual. I would also recommend the shorter blade for the american sycthe to start with until you get the hand of it. Learn to sharpen it and keep it sharp. I too would recommend the Scythe Book. It is well worth the money. I really like the scythe and wish I could use it more, but I have many things that take me away from it. It is a very enjoyable way to make hay.
As to mowing machines, the seven were made before the 9s but at the end they were both made at the same time on different lines. The plan was for the 9 to replace the 7 but it turned out that the number 7 had so many fans that they couldn't give it up. It is a good mower. But as was stated it is slightly heavier on the tongue than the number 9. You can lower the hitch point on the tongue and hitch a little close so that the pull gives a little lift to the mower and this will help. I hang a weight under my seat but I am getting heavier as I get older it seems so who knows, a few more cookies and I will balance my mower nicely!

I bought my european scythe and "the scythe book" from the "scythe supply" google it it will be one on the list. Don't know where to get a new american scythe.

Will, weather or not a number 9 is an improvement or not is really an opinion. First the cutter bars and shoes are the same, which is a large part of the mower.

The "advantage" of the 9 was that it was supposed to be lighter on the horses necks because of the location of the gear box, forward on a 7 and rear ward on a 9. I personally think its hogwash, I cant tell the difference in tongue weight on the two of them. And a "big boned" individual setting on the back counterweights the tongue even more so its a moot point for many.

A 7 has a heavier frame and wheels, less likely to break when the mower falls in a hole. I have seen several 9's broke this way, no 7's(warning personal observation)

I like the sprag clutches in the 7 better, the are in the gear box instead of the wheels, less likely to stick. The 9's can be real hard to take the wheels off as well where the 7(once you know what your doing) comes apart fairly easy.

Mainly, focus on condition, not just either a 9 or 7. Here in my part of indiana, the 9 is fairly rare compared to a 7?

Madeleine, My wife and I love the trolley. basically that is all we do with it, make stacks. My wife was ready to give up on making loose hay until I got it going. We use it both ways, but its not much faster unloading hay as once you get through the top cap it fairly easy to throw hay down if you work the whole stack down evenly.

Thanks for the inormation again, will check out that source.

I did find a place that sells american scythe blades and handles. Guess where?....you gussed it...
www.lehmans.com what don't they carry for the old timey ways?

If the 7 is heavier up front( which an unscientific test has proven to amount to only two pounds at the yoke)then why is it being said it was made for smaller people? Wouldn't that mean the opposite? Also if that where the case why didn't McCormick continue to produce the 7 along side of the 9 so fat farmers and skinny farmers could get the right machines for their body type?

The 9 replaced the 7. That would tend to mean it was a better or at least better selling model, right?

The seven didn't completely replace the 9. The seven was continued on a separate line at the same time as the nine. And I agree with what Jay Moyer says about tongue weight. I have always said the seven is heavier because everyone says so, but if it is it is likely only heavier by a couple of pounds. It would be a simple matter to stick the end of a tongue in a hanging weight and see what it reads and compare the 9 to the 7. I may have to do this just out of curiosity. I will weigh a few mowers at cutting height and see what comes up.
The first mower that I cut down for a single was a number 7. We cut the bar to 3.5 feet and put shaves on it. It worked fine. My cousin still uses it with a single mule and he really likes it. It doesn't seem to be too heavy on the shaves.

I have bought a new American style aluminum snathe scythe at True Value, around here it is called Farmers Hardware. They are made by the Seymour company. They offer a couple of different blades but I would make sure it is an Austrian stamped blade and not Chinese or Indian made. There is a company in Tennessee called Marugg that makes a good scythe. They offer the Austrian straight handle or a cross between the American and European. They use Wendell Berry as a reference due to his poem about the Scythe. I met Mr. Berry sometime back and asked him about his referral, and he said while he did not specifically give a recommendation on their company and they were only quoting him from his poem, they do make a good scythe and he was very pleased with it. Also I have a ring and pin for a European style scythe that I ordered from Scythe Supply. My intention is to make my own scythe and use the European stile attaching ring. One more project on my list! I do like the american style of nibs or handles over the European style though because they can be moved as needed while on the European scythe the handle are fit to the individual who will be using it, then glued into place. A friend of mine brought his over and we made a turkey wing to go on it so he could cradle wheat with us. It worked well, but his handles kept slipping loose. I plan to tinker with one this winter/spring and see what I can come up with. Sold the tobacco yesterday so now I have a little time before I start plowing again.

Jay;
Next time you make loose hay could you take some pictures? I would love to see how the wire trolley and hoist work, and how all the other equipment fits in. Did you get a hay loader? I thought I remember a mention of one in an earlier letter but I could be confused.
Thanks
Madeleine

I have some pictures Madeleine, Let me get them posted.

I do have a new idea hay loader, a very nice one that I found for a 100 dollars, of course I have probably twice that in gas to get the loader(they are terrible to haul). I have used the loader for 2 years now and the trolley for a year and a half.

Please be patient with the pictures as my dial up connection takes forever to upload them.

Answers for Disagree,

First, I am sorry but I wasn't trying to imply that the models were for big or small framed farmers. I and apparently someone else belives that the toungue weight is not that different.

The engineers at the time designed the mowers so the operator is a counter weight, its pure physics of fulcrums and levers. At the time the average male was somewhere around 135-145 pounds. Today to an engineer, the design weight of a human 175(The actual average is higher the the "engineers standard" now)

SO the point I was trying to get across was that "IF" and that the big word "IF" you believe that the 7 is heavier on the tongue, an individual weighing significantly more than 135 pounds would negate the extra tongue weight do to physics.

As far as a new model being better, I don't think you have been in manufacturing design enviroment. With the exclusion of an advancement in technology, rarely is a model design change better for the end customer. Many times things are updated for marketing purposes, make a design cheaper to produce, or visual appeal. From my mechanical and engineering back ground I would have to say that the last two are the reason for the redesign. The frame of the 9 is lighter, thus less iron is used, and is cheaper to produce, but not neccessarly better for you if it breaks because you hit a hole. The 9 I will have to admit is visually more appealing. Mechanically I believe it was a very small step back, not significant but I don't think the "hype" of the 9 is warranted. I think the are pretty equal for the most part and condition and availability should be the deciding factor in purchasing one or the other.

What model sells the best is not always connected to reality. I mean the ford explorer (ranger based one) was the "Best selling SUV" for many years even though it was in manys opinion a problematic problem. Not to pick on ford but they also produced the 300 straight 6, an awesome engine to 96, in 97 they brought out a v6, while decent was not any where near the engine it replaced even if it looked better on "paper", but it added significantly to fords profit margin as it was much cheaper to produce.

Dodge used to have good automatic transmissions, the 727 was bulletproof, in 88' they went to hell, only recently in the last year or two have the finally improved them somewhat.

Chevy came out with "Amazing" electronic dashes, radios, and AC controls in the late 80's, Especially the ac/heat controls where hard to control and pay attention to the road compared to turning a simple knob that many other vehicles used and continue to use.

I could go on and on

What source do you have that the 7s and 9s were produced more than a couple of years simultaneusly or simply long enough for all the plants to retool? Not saying your wrong, just want to be educated.

Just to pick one difference, explain why a lighter weight machine isn't an improvement? Seems to be reasonable that you'd want a lighter machine to require less energy to pull? Isn't that the name of game in serious draft animal production. Less weight, longer workday?

How about lets use the automobile as an example of an questionable improvement. The Model T got better fuel economy and was easier on the environment than most modern vehicles, but on the flip side, it rode like a logcart and you froze your hinny off just to name a few drawbacks.

Guess I just don't buy the unsubstantiated claims based on opinion. Much the same as in the other thread where someones intelligence is be assaulted with no proof other than opinion.

I just don't think anyone should present things as fact without the facts to back it up. Just doesn't bode well for the exchange of information here. Now if you followed up with a disclaimer letting folks know it's based on opinion then all is well.

I want you all to know that I used my "big boned" deal in humor. I only weigh about 198 and hope most of that is muscle. (or at least that's what I keep telling myself) hehe. Any way, I can assure you that the reference to balance was a very good idea and I appreciate the suggestion.

To the man that thinks a lighter weight mower would be better because "reducing weight so it would pull easier".
You need a lot of weight on a mower so it can get the traction needed to offset the friction and effort of cutting the material. If you had one made out of aluminum, the wheels would just slide. They didn't waste iron and frieght because they wanted to.

Still disagree, am I correct that your "opinion" is that less weight means better production? If this is your opinion then do you remove the seat, seat post, everything out of the tool box, balls on the hames of your harness, only nylon harnesses on your horses, to get the lightest weight equipment and there fore the most work out of them?

It is of my opinion, that good durable tools, with good design, and low maintenance are the best for my production means. A broken machine will stop production, and expensive machine will tie up capital that can be used elsewhere.

Fact, I spent more for my Number 9 than I did for my 7, a significant amount more.

Fact, my number 9 was in better exterior shape(it is newer) but to recondition it took much longer due to difficulty with removing the wheels.

Fact, I have never seen a broken frame number 7.

Fact, I have seen 3 broken frame number 9's

Fact, I have seen twice as many 7's in this area than 9's

Fact, the cutter bar is virtually the same on the machines(small difference in pivot pins, although you can make them work on either), this is where the real effort is taking place, where the grass is being cut, IE a sharp knife vs a Dull knife will have more effect on draft than 50 extra pounds being carried on roller bearings supported axles and wheels.

Fact, if you have very hilly country or very small horses maybe the weight difference can have an effect. But so would stepping off the seat and walking, most don't however?

Fact, any energy used to start a load is returned by momentum(again very small part of the draft). In fact heavy flywheels are many times an advantage in machinery, ie you would never find a light weight aluminum flywheel on a heavy diesel motor, but you would on a racing car.

Fact, both a number 9 and a number 7 have a heavy counterbalanced flywheel, if the engineers where so worried strictly about get the "maximum performance by reducing weight" wouldn't they have eliminated that "excess" weight?

Fact, I doubt that anyone could prove one way or another what was the actual intent of the executives and engineers in their decision to redesign the mower, as they are all dead and most documentation is more than likely missing.

Fact, anything written in a book is not neccessarly factual, but someones educated but sometimes misguided opinion.

Opinion, by many experts, including Mr Lynn Miller, both the 9 and the 7, and #4 John deere are very good machines.

Opinion of mine, dont pass up a good deal on a number 7 just because your stuck with the idea that a 9 is "so much better"

As far as your model T goes, lets evaluate it.

What is the purpose of your travels? Do you want to get 4 people across town, or the state, or country.

Fact, The model T had a top speed of 40-45 miles an hour. Is this acceptable to you?

Fact Modern cars are being tested for fuel economy at freeway speeds now. This lowers the apparent fuel economy as wind resistance becomes a significant factor of power required at 45-50mph and climbs exponentially from that point.

Fact, most people (but not me) have air conditioning in their vehicle, do you? This reduces effcientcy by 10 percent, do you still want air conditioning on cars? The is a penalty for comfort

Fact, model T's were very dangerous. Modern safety features such as crumple zones, air bags, bumpers, and strong seats/rollover structure all weight significantly more than the model T's 1200 lbs weight. A smart car weights 1600lbs in comparison, a honda fit, which is has more capacity, weights 2500lbs.

The model T gets worse gas milage than any sub compact car and they all have better safety, speed, comfort, and interior room than the T).

Fact, the T didn't have vapor canisters, catylitic converters, modern fuel injection. So if it was putting all of the Nox and Voc's into the air than even the largest land yacht today isn't, how is it easier on the enviroment?

Fact NOX and VOC's have been proven to be harmful to humans directly

Fact, CO2 aka production "man made global warming" production has not been proven as factual yet. The studies the recent "proved" global warming were biased and exclude much data the didn't fit the hypothesis. The studies also negate to take into the account the proven fact that the earth is still in an Ice age and has been gradually warming naturally for 40000+years

Therefore a Model T is more environmentally damaging than an F350 as far as facts go.

Fact, the model T touring got around 25 mpg, of course at 40mph. Now it could really only carry 4-5 people and very light cargo. The model TT truck got significantly worse fuel economy and was pretty slow because of its double reduction drives.

Ignoring for example that 15 passenger van can move 15 people at 15 mpg(225mpg per person) compared to 5 passengers at 25 mpg(125mpg per person).

Which example above is more efficient overall?

A semi only get 6mpg, but can move over 45000lbs of cargo, MPGs are not a good measure of efficentcy in most cases.

Fact, current engines are the most effecient at hp produced per pound of fuel burn than anytime in history, it is not engineers fault the the buying public wants higher and higher performance, in fact its pretty amazing on what a modern automobile can and still achieve the fuel economy that it acheives. If you want even better economy you have to lower your standards.

Fact, I helped design and build a car for the SAE Supermilage Contest 10 years ago that achieved 1157 mpg. I drove the car in testing (single occupant/operator) and it is in my opinion, that you, nor your family, nor anyone else would be insane enough to take such vehicle into the public roadway, due to crash safety, comfort, and utility.

Simple facts are rarely simple, and many times misleading.

Opinion, you ask for "facts" but state half truths. Can you back up YOUR statements?


Quote from "still disagree" "I just don't think anyone should present things as fact without the facts to back it up. Just doesn't bode well for the exchange of information here."

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?

This is a forum, a place to discuss ideas, theories, facts, and opinions. Just because my well educated opinions/facts/theories do not agree with yours does not mean that it should not be stated here.

I do step off my box and if my comments offend you, then so be it, that was not my intentions and only you have the ability to be offended by others comments.

Good Day

Jay Moyer

Dale are you saying the #9 is to light to mow? Better tell them crazy Amish they've been using something that doesn't work.

Here is some pictures Madeleine











Sorry I don't have any pics of full stacks made with this trolley. Some reason I didn't have the camera out there when topping the stack. Finished stacks end up being about 18-20 feet(trolley is 24) of course it settles a little over time.

Well..I learned something today. My Percheron weighs somewhere between a Model T and a Smart Car. Wonder what her gas milage is???? Although remember mpg is not a good measure since all in all, she is highly biologic, sustainable low technology and on the cutting edge farming machine:)

Thank you for all of the information and I found a little humor in it. Some of the facts presented were interesting, and all in all I am really glad to know that the few poinds difference between the 7 and 9 aren't as big of an issue. If a couple of poinds made that big of a difference, I was afraid I couldn't use my horse anytime between Thanksgiving and Christmas. That was really going to be some down time:)

Disagreeing still, why don't you read what is written and not what you think was written?

See there, I knew you would come around and agree with me in the end.

Better to state your opinion without presenting it as fact.

Point of fact, I merely used your assertion that a the 9 was cut down in weight for monetary reasons and not because it was an improvement. As you said who knows what was in their minds? I also disagree that the frames are prone to breakage if you hit a hole.

Here's a question maybe you can answer, why do I find so many Big 4s with busted frames? Bet I've seen 6 this past year.

BTW, I'm not opposed to any machine in good working order

My whole point is don't push opinion as truth. There are a lot of impressionable folks out there that use this board for advancement, but sometimes the stuff the "experts" here put out borders on dangerous. Example, tying the lines to a wagon and unhooking half the traces. I remember reading one of the newer folks had a runaway for such mess as that. Think it was her that posted a thread trying to find wagon parts after that. I may be wrong about it being the same person.

Finally agree, I am sorry, but your statements are in contradiction to your previous statements. You have listed your opinions as truth, and never answered any of my questions that I have asked of you. Yet I have answered and spent a great deal of time to back up my previously stated claims.

As for pushing opinion as truth, that is the reason I mentioned to Will that a 7 would be a good choice just as is a 9, since I felt that many push the opinion that a 9 is better, many whom never have owned both, When it is of my opinion that they are both good mowers. I did use word such as "I think" and "I don't think" which infers that is an opinion.

I am with Dale, you are not reading what has been written.

Jay;
Thanks for the pictures. That looks like a wonderful setup. You must be very courageous to work so high up.
Madeleine

Where is the contradiction? What have I stated as fact that you didn't back me up with facts?

Jay, nice looking Belgian. And people are always asking (including me) what you can do with a single horse. That looks like a heck of a load of hay. I think I am going to get a long way with some ingenuity using one horse.

Jay, I really like that set up and I really appreciate you posting the pics on here! I have been thinking that if my barn doesn't hold all the hay we put up this year I would rather stack it outside than round bale it. Your set up might be a good way for me to go.
It warmed up a lot here yesterday and I am already anxious to get back to hay making. I have decided to put my last years tobacco ground back in Alfalfa and want to plant a second acre of alfalfa for an experiment I have in mind.

Looks like a handy setup...how did you brace the poles at the bottom when you raised them? Are these the same as gin poles, only connected by the cable?

Will, she did it single that day, but it was done because the shafts were on the cart and I didn't want to fool with changing over to the tongue. Most of the time I team her with one of our appy mares on the cart. She was real tired that day but the work got done.

Gin pole is a very broad term so the could be considered as such, but I dont. They are triangular. The bottom piece is a 7 bottom mouldbord plow beam that was going to scrap, I cut it in half, one half for each side. The sides are 4x4 by 1/8 wall steel. Every thing is bolted together so the can be disassembled if neccessary. The upright set on a pad narrow pad of lime(poor mans concrete). The there is one cable between the uprights, and a cable going to a pair of ground anchors at each end with a big turnbuckle inline with the cable.

To lift we drove a pair of t post into the ground so the upright couldn't slide on the ground. Then we lifted up the top end and propped it up with a 2x6x12' A heavy rope tied to the bumper of my truck pulled it the rest of the way up. I was worried about it but it worked out all right. The worst part is installing the hoist on the cable, 25 feet up. Sure wish I had a bucket truck instead of a ladder. I have a rope harness on incase I slip.

I was orignially going to write every thing up but I have decided not to as the litigation in this country is unreal. I designed every thing to 10 times working loads but to much of my design depends on proper welds, proper installation of wire rope, and proper rigging, that I feel its best I let people design/build their own set up.

As to not so fast, quote"The Model T got better fuel economy and was easier on the environment than most modern vehicles"

quote "My whole point is don't push opinion as truth"

you stated it as fact but gave no backing. I gave evidence that at the least its comparing apples to oranges and at most a promotion of an agenda that is based in fear tactics, as most of the greenies like to blurt out this little lie.

"Will, she did it single that day, but it was done because the shafts were on the cart and I didn't want to fool with changing over to the tongue. Most of the time I team her with one of our appy mares on the cart. She was real tired that day but the work got done. "

- Tired horses are good horses!!:) Every farm is different, and there are some things that I'm sure I would like a team for (especially hay- such as mowing, tedding, raking with a tractor style rake) But I can't justify another horse year round- so I tell myself that one really tired horse is better than 2 really fat and sassy ones.

Jay, you are right about letting everyone design their own set up, which makes the most sense anyway since we all have something different going on. I love to see what other people are doing and then adapt it to suit my situation. I am not particularly talented or clever mechanically so the details given here are very helpful.