we run long horn cows but have had 2 or 3 killed in the last 4 weeks or 6 weeks by a mountain lion the last one was about 1/2 mile from the house.

Believe I'd be doing the killin next!

Where are you?

2004 was the first time they were after livestock up here. At that time they picked on horses. Vet from the western part of the state said they couldn't seem to resist horses or sheep. Every body thought we were crazy, but finaly the game and fish admitted after 3 years that there was a confirmed horse kill 10 miles away. A vet that has done some cat hunting told me that it takes about 30 days for them to cover their territory. If they are established cats. 3 of my horses on pasture were run through a fence when I was gone for 24 hours. Called my friend up and told him to watch out because I didn't know what it was but it was not a coyote. I thought at that time it could have been stray dogs. Next morning I got a better look at the one horse. She had scratches on her chest and right shoulder,4 of them about an inche apart. They ran my friends horses through a good tight fence less than 2 days later. 1 broke a leg and had to be put down. About 30 days later a smaller mare got its neck ripped open in the corral by his barn. cat almost got that one, one jugular was nicked but it didn't leak. Same scratches on the chest and shoulder that was on my horse. Bite marks on that horse were about 1.5 inches width of canines.
Best of luck getting them, good lion dogs would be your quickest option as soon as you find a fresh kill.

Around here we have several people that have lion hounds. They would love to get on a fresh sign and kick some cat butt. Problem in here they will only let so many cat be taken out of and area so the hunters tree the cats but only take a few. I keep trying to convince them to leave the toms and take the queens. The toms will then kill the kits to keep bringing the females into estrus. With time you have controlled the population. Unfortunately they are interested in increasing numbers not cutting them. KM

We keep them thinned out pretty good around here too. But we had one up and down the creek this week. My animals have been spooky as all hell. Dog's crying to get in the house las two nights. I went out with the spotlight and rifle but couldn't see it. My brother heard it night before last. No livestock lost thankfully. Hope you get the cat.

Any of you people mind stating just where you are, to help put some context to these conversations?

I have one hanging around one ridge over and I found healed over claw marks on the neck of one of my yearling heifers. Have not seen it near the house since Sept. I don't like having cats around. One did get hit by a car two weeks ago and I hope it was the same kitty. I was trying to find lost cows in October and was walking through the woods and found a fresh killed elk calf that was killed by a cat ...my skin crawled for a little while.

I'm short a cow. Don't know if she is a pile of bones or what. Seems like we have several cats in this area. One was killed on the front porch just a few miles from here.
My guard dog wanted in the house real bad one night so possibiltys exist.

Doesn't matter where you live. We just got some pictures that were taken beginning of Jan. in upstate NY - less than 100 miles south of where we live. Three cats in broad daylight hanging around in a driveway.

I live in North central Nebraska. yes I know what a cat kill looks like have seen them before. will see them again. If given a chance I will see the cat Last one I seen here was 20 years ago dident have a gun. horse I was riding wouldent get realy close or would have roped him. lost him in some chop hills, seem like the horse didnt want to catch him. I roped lose horses off of him so know he could catch a cat.

Don't think you should rope a cat, bear yes but not cat. Chad Hagen told about a fellow he worked with that roped a little ole bobcat. When that rope came tight, the cat went right up the rope and the last the fellow seen of that cat, cat was riding the horse off one of those Missouri river breaks and they never did find even the saddle.

Never heard the term "lion hound". Are they a specific breed? or just hounds trained to trail cougars?

Eastern Idaho
I wouldn't rope a cat. They don't deal well with the result. My littlest daughter has tried to train her cat to a leash for a year now. The cat ain't having any of it.

A good friend of mine has a picture of him mounted on his old brown horse with a cow elk on the other end. The elk and the horse are squared up and facing each other. It makes for a cool picture. The real story is they were hunting near the end of the season and my buddy having filled his tag left his gun home as to not be tempted. Another hunter in the group had hit this cow and the snow being about 2-3 feet deep and it getting dark, my buddy roped it and held it until the others in the group got there. Kind of reminds you of one of the old remington pictures.

Nothing gives me the willies like a cat scream. I spent a long night in a sleeping bag as a 13 year old kid after hearing a cat scream. He was on the other side of the lake and we on the other but he had the horses goosed and me worse.

Heritage Farm, I live in Wyoming, KM is in Idaho, and I think Dale Wagner is in Washington state.

That might be a fake. I saw one picture that was supposed to be at Esmond N.D. like that in October. The one I saw looked like tame ones sitting around a car in broad daylight. My limited experience is they wouldn't do that in the daytime. At night I have seen tracks through the neighbers yard by his shop. I think the pair we had were young ones,but they only gave glimpses of themselves when flushed out of cover during the day. I think they became good cats that fall and winter! We can shoot them in eastern N.D.. No limit unlike there is west of the missouri river. I am 30 miles south of Devils Lake N.D.

It is a good reminder that all cats are similar. They don't live with people,they allow people to live with them. A few years ago while repairing roads we began to observe in the dust where a cat would come in each night and investigate our work. We could even see where it had jumped up onto the track of our dozer and walked the length of the track before jumping off. Although mostly nocturnal they have lost their fear of man. The only reason they run from the hounds is because of the bawling noise the hounds make when following the track. If the hounds made no noise the lion would turn around and kill the dogs. Lions are easy to catch in a snare when they are in the area and you know where they travel. The toms generally really fight the cable but the females will often just lay down and die. I have observed where a female lion killed 93 sheep in a single night on the bedding ground. They are the only predator I know of that seem to kill for the shear fun of killing.

Well went out to feed this morning cow was chewed on some more. There was fresh tracks in the skift of snow, just not enough to track. Hmmm my daughter has an ol tom cat that will lead with out a problem. But that kid and that cat are something else. Always called that cat part dog. going to put 270 winchester in, let me correct that going to take it with me every where I go. Some years ago the Nebraska wildlife dept. turned 5 cats loose. They tried to denigh it. A friend of mines wife hit one with her car on her way home from work on second shift. They took pics of the cat then called game and parks. Game warden came out loaded it up and never called back like he said he would. 4 weeks later they called him, he said "that was not a lion". Now my friend is a little on the quick side, he said "that is good that you said that cause the pictures that we took came out real good even though they was took in the headlight of the car!" Now my friend and the game warden was good friends untill then. Now the game warden will get up and leave the cafe if my friend walks in. He also started going to a different church. I guess its hard to look a friend in the eye and knowingly tell them a out right lie.


Jim

The last comment is interesting. In Northern Wisconsin, we have cougars. People who know what a big cat looks like see and identify them. They show up on trail cameras. Last year one was photographed high in a tree in a local town and played on the front page of the local papers.
Our DNR basically denies the existance of cougars. They couldn't deny the one on the front page. The others they claim are misidentifications or bobcats. Or "they are just traveling through".
What's the problem with saying "we have cougars along with bobcats, deer, elk, etc......"? I just don't understand why the state wildlife folks basically deny the existance of these cats, yet they are being ID'd commonly.

Koty, I'm guessing the answer to your question is; because the DNR and Game folks don't want people to shoot them. Or to have piles of people out there hunting them pell mell. There have been sightings of big cats in the southern part of Va. My brother was one of them. Saw the cat on 3 different occasions, glimpses of it. 2 times by the local public dumpsters and one time it darted across the road in front of him. He knows the difference between a bobcat and a big cat. There have also been a few sightings over the years of the big cats up on Skyline drive. But if you ask the Game and Inland Fisheries folks------nope, there are none in this state (Va.) and if there were, they would be unwanted pets or escapees from small-time zoos.

We have them here in western indiana. DNR will deny it here to. I saw them in california from time to time, no mistaken the way they move. About 3 years ago I saw one and thought I was loosing my mind, didn't say anything because cougars just are not in indiana. Well some months later several trusted friends and other memebers of the community. Someone finally admitted it to the fact that the DNR let them go around here to control the out of the control deer population.

A friend of mine up in Washington e-mailed me a picture yesterday of a cat shot near Wenatchee Wa. that has got to be a record, 317 lbs. His paws looked as big as a African lions paws. Don't know how to put the picture on here or I would let you all see it.

I was told that I had never seen a lion befor out in the wild and that I would not be able to identify it. That puzzled me a bit. I asked this game warden if he had actually thought about that statement before he said it. Now that put him on his guard, and made him see red. I asked him if he had ever seen Obama in person, he said no. Then I asked him if he had ever met Dolly Parton, he said no again. Then I said by his theory then he would not be able to recgonize Dolly or Obama if they came into the gas station because he had never seen either one out in the public before. Case closed anouther game warden who lost his ability to talk.

I have seen a big cat in the wild before. I was trying to get a shot at it but never could get a good enough view of the cat to make the shot. Every time I thought that he was going to step out where the brush was not so thick he turned. That was 20 years ago, I guess I could have forgot in my old age but I dont think that I am that old.

We have to remember though we the public "do not know anything and are not smart enough to tie our shoe strings, unless they show us how first". This is the attitude that we see so many times. I am so glad that they all are not like this. I have to say that I know one that in his words would love to come down on his day off and hunt that big cat. lol I told him to just give me a call the day before and we would give it a try. I would have thought that it was a set up if I had not know him sence he was brought home from the hospital.

T. Nichols forward me the picture and I will get it on here for you, kw_1996ne@yahoo.com
Just put big cat in the subject line.


Jim

They are running mountain lions with hounds around here. They must be getting thick because I hear about people seeing them driving down the road here. I have yet to see one which I am sure I will eventually.

I'm not normally one of those conspiracy theorists, but this refusal of most state wildlife agencies to recognize that some knowledgeable, sensible people really do see mountain lions has got to be one of the most outragous farces perpetrated against the public by our governmental agencies. Granted, there are a lot of fools out there who wouldn't know the difference between a goldfish and a great white shark, despite their insistence, but there are also a lot of people who DO know what animals they are looking at. The only reason that I can come up with for this widespread coverup, other than the fact that they can get away with it because they don't even have to answer to the voters, is that state DNRs are afraid that if they give in and recognize the cats' existence, they will be forced to use their funds to protect them. The Eastern Cougar is still listed as federally endangered, and as such it would be some time before they recovered to the point to allow hunting, the real focus of most of these DNRs. They are afraid to have to waste their funding on protecting an animal that will not pay for itself for years to come, if at all, in the form of hunting license fees and associated income. Then there's the fact that they'll have to deal with the stupidity of the general public, who, when hearing that cougars are confirmed as living in their state, will unnecessarily and hysterically be in fear for their children's and their poodles' lives.
In my state, and many others, Fish and Game officers are full peace officers, having most of the powers as most other police. At a sighting last year of a mountain lion in my town, amazingly enough confirmed by a state F&G officer, because he saw it, there was a statement released which, of course, gave the same old escaped exotic pet line. He went so far as to say that it probably was declawed too, and maybe even had it's canines removed. Wait a minute, aren't police oficers supposed to investigate using facts and hard evidence? Are they supposed to just speculate and assume? Would any of that hold up in court if he came before a judge and said what he thought that a suspect did, with no evidence to support it? These are the people who insist that there is no evidence of many of these sightings, when there often is, yet it's OK for them to speculate without a shred of it themselves? If they have all of the rights and responsibilities of real police officers, shouldn't they be required to state only facts which they can prove, rather than mere specualtions which only help to add to their coverup?

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/network.html

Even here in western NC there are big cats. Of course the game wardens are in denial. They tell you that none exist here. There have been several sightings over the years, not just the tawny color but black also. I have saw their prints in the snow. On at least 3 different occasions my wife as seen them while she was going to work before daylight. One was a black cat that was crossing one of our hayfields that we have leased. In our community there are several white-tail deer, which is a food source for them.

We get the same line of retoric any time someone says they have seen a wolf. Coyote or domestic dog is the response and I say BS. If you have seen one of those big buggers you know the difference. We are less than 40 miles as the crow flies from Yellowstone what makes the fish and game folks think a wolf couldn't or wouldn't be in this area. Then a rancher shot a "Large Domestic Dog" that was in his yearlings. Oh you better believe it was a wolf then. Funny how it wasn't until it was shot then it was. When the paw is darn near a dinner plate it ain't no stinking puppy. KM

Jim......I tried to send the big cat picture to you but it kept saying address invaild. Do I have it right...

My wife said they were mutant coons when the game and fish department said they weren't here! Seems a regular response! They charge 20 bucks for a deer license, why aren't they happy when somebody kills one?
Now this is second hand; but a local trucker was in the western part of our state at a truck stop. He saw a load with california plates that was tarped. He peeked under the tarp and saw big cats in cages. Don't know where they went; but they started to be a problem 6 months before he seen them for us up here.
As far as wolves go; only seen one. Had to go back and look at the size of the track. I grew up trapping fox and trying to trap coyotes. Wow what a track! Missed the sucker by less than 4 inches at 200 yards. I thought I still was seing a coyote when I let fly at a running animal. Didn't alow for the wind drift. When I mentioned that to the local gamewarden, he said you gotta do what you gotta do. Told us that there was a breeding pair within 20 miles of me. Less than 3 years before he didn't believe we were seeing big cats. Go Figure!

weve seen wolves, mountain lions, red fox & black helicopters, there not suposed to exisit. But we all know they do. What outfit uses orange & white helicopters NO noumbers or lettering seen hovering below hill tops put rifle with 24 power scope on them they took off fast very little noise if any. 1/2 mile they were out of sight, I'm not the only one that saw them.

Dang boys! I haven't been on here for a few days and here you are talking about one of my favorite subjects. Some of what you're saying is true and some don't quite square with what I've experienced. I used to run a big band of sheep in great lion country and they sure do kill lambs, but I've never seen one kill for the fun of it. In fact, quite often you can't tell they've made a kill. You might find some blood on the ground, but that is generally all you'll see. They pack them off and eat them. I had big white guard dogs so that may have been why they did that. It was always just one lamb at a time. I didn't even find wool, only in scat piles. When they kill deer, they pull the hair off and leave it scattered around and eat the deer, but with sheep they generally eat the wool and it comes on through. Seldom find any part of a lamb. They eat it all " hide, hair, guts and all". I found the skulls of ewes some times. Found a part of a hide and the top of a ewe's skull one time about thirty feet up in a tree.Probably keeping it away from coyotes. My guard dogs did a great job of protecting from coyotes while we were in the mountains. They weren't much use against lions. I think the lions just came in quiet, killed quiet and left quiet. As for screaming I've only ever heard one scream. That was in the fall during a deer hunt and it trailed my sister-in-law almost to the truck and screamed. Sister-in-law was on her time of the month. I don't know if that had anything to do with it, that's the only time I ever heard one. Even running them with dogs and treeing them and all, they never scream. They growl and spit a lot but no screaming.
Had a couple of good dogs and treed a lot of lions. moved into this damned civilization six years ago now and gave away my dogs. Talked to the guy I gave one to last weekend. He still has her. She's 9 years old now and that's pretty old for a dog that earns its keep chasing mountain lions. She's still at it.
Didn't have any trouble with them in the cattle other than when one would walk up the creek the weaned calves would blow out throught the side of the feed pen. Bust off posts and the whole works. First time that happened, there was no snow, but I suspected what had happened. The next time there was snow and I followed that cat track right up along the brushy creek bottom. The calves had been about a hundred yards away up by the feeders and still just blew out the feed yard. The cat track look like that cat hadn't even slowed down or turned in the least going past those calves. It sure hadn't chased them, but it must scare the bejeebers out of calves to see one of those things. I did get a scare one time from one though.
One day while I was still farming, it was early spring, and I had just a few calves on the ground. I had one calf that wasn't getting enough milk so after I fed the cows in the morning, I took a bottle with some replacer up to it on the snow machine. Here's a big old lion track within about twenty feet of where this calf was laying walked right up my tracks from feeding that morning. Didn't turn right nor left passing that calf. Well I figured that was too close so I took in after him on the snowmobile. Followed his track for probably about 4 miles before I finally jumped him way back up on the mountain behind the house. Ran him through a little saddle and into a patch of maples and quakeys with just a few big pines in it, too thick for the sled. I circled around it a couple of times with the sled, and he hadn't come out so I parked the sled at the bottom and followed his tracks into the brush. I figured he'd treed, and I had in mind that if I could scare him up the tree good, I could go home and get a gun and do him in. Sometimes when you tree them with dogs they'll stay in the tree for a couple of hours. I came to a big pine that he had jumped into then jumped out of again. I thought he'd probably given me the slip and was headed for a big deep canyon just over the hill, but it wasn't that big of a brush patch so I thought I'd just follow his tracks out the other side to be sure. I came to another big tree and could see he'd jumped into that one too, but no tracks going away this time so I started to look up in the tree for him. As I'm walking up to the tree I'm looking up for him and can't see anything and I thought that was kind of funny but sometimes they're hard to spot way up in the branches. I was just to the bottom of the tree, and still hadn't seen him when he looks around the tree from about eight feet off the ground on the first big limb, and I'm only about five feet from my head to his head. They have a way of looking at food that is different from when they look at a dog and a hunter harassing them from under a tree, and right then I was getting the food look. No gun, no club. I thought I have a calf bottle back down in the rack on the snowmobile. You think of the darndest things at a time like that. I didn't dare look away so reached down and made a snow ball, threw it and charged trying to yell, but something seemed to be stuck in my throat and all that came out was somewhere between a little girl sreaming and a sick calf bawling. Luckily for me, he chose just that moment to head for that deep canyon, and I'm still really gald he did. Though I've heard that if you kill an elk and want to keep critters from bothering it you mark you territory around it by urinating. If that cat hadn't run just when he did I think I'd have marked myself. Never so glad to see one run off in my life.
We had a lot of fun with lions and dogs. None of us came out the worse for wear other than a few scratches to the dogs. Now you've gone and got me missing my old life, but I've nearly written a book so I'd better stop and go to bed. Have fun with them critter. It ain't just everybody gets the chance to play with 'em.

Kevin,
I have heard that about cats grabbing a lamb and packing off. Makes sense if you watch a cat kill a rodent and pack it off to eat it. Might not with a bigger kill but certainly a deer, lamb, or ewe.

I have only heard the lion scream that one night and it made my hair stand on end. Talk about shrill. Best I can describe it is a women scared. I know the horses didn't care for it much. I have cut tracks often but only heard one and then just the one night. It was early in June first pack trip of the season.

KM

Ok folks I got the pics from T. Nichols so here they are.

Glad that I could help, anytime

Jim

Kari, I saw once where a lion killed a ewe that would weigh around 180 pounds and jumped a fence, woven wire with 3 rows of barbwire on top. They are fantastically atheletic. When one jumps out of a tree covered with snow from thirty feet up and spreads its paws out superman style with all that snow flying down with it, it is so pretty and just graceful. You'll never forget it, just like that scream.

No question that they are an athlete. The thing that is about half spooky is they are so quiet you know where they are cut sign and never see them. I have seen them less than a handful of times at liberty in the wild. Heard them once and yet know they are around often. Cool critters but I am not sure I ever want to be in the you are food line of sight with one.

They are indeed a neat critter. I did have one follow me up a hill when I was opening my headgate at the creek. It just angled along and didn't really cut the distance much. I threw some rocks at him and hollered as loud and mean as I could. He stayed in the timber when I came out into the sage thankfully. Gave me the willies and I don't go down in that hole without my pistola any more.
Mostly the lions don't do a lot of damage. Still it's not a bad idea to keep them in check and respectful of humans. I have to say the Game and Fish keeps this in balance with they way they manage the hunting.

The problem is the big cats are not in check, they are not respectfull of humans. Just like the coyotes, I have read way to many news ariticles of young kids being attacked in their yards. Not at farm or ranches but in big cities. The first one that I read was from Beverly Hills. Now I ask "why would they respect us every where they go they are around us or something that we take care of. Our sent is every where. Kind of like going into a persons house that smokes when you dont. You will get use to it if your there long enough. They are use to us.
Before Game and fish can keep the balance they will have to admit what they did and admit that it was the wrong thing to do. This thing that they do "Oh no we didnt do that, or no there is not any big cats in this area" didnt work. Because they was keeping track of the cats "that they turned loose" with electronic trackers. The problem is they cant track the ones that have been born sence then in the rural areas. Less then 40 miles away at a road side quick stop, The morning coffee drinkers watched a momma cat and 2 little ones walk accross the highway less then 150 yards away. I think that the game and fish people that decided to turn the cats loose should have to open up their retirment accounts and pay for the damages that they caused. When are we going to make people responsible for what they do? Why do goverment employes need to be protected from their actions, if what they are doing is so right then why do they need this protection?


Jim

those pictures are of a realy nice cat wish more would turn out the same way. not all leave the ones in a zoo alive, thats where they belong. You ought to be realy proud of the cat good work.

Wow!! That is one big cat! (refering to the pic posted). I myself have never seen one in the wild, only in zoos or on TV. I think it would give me the creeps if I knew one was close by. I'm fairly comfortable about bears, I guess that comes from being exposed to them.

A lady wrote up an article in the local paper after interviewing people that had seen cats up here. In the evening and early morning light they have a tendency to look more like black. Without artificial light, that is. Game and Fish denied it for almost 3 years; but the local Warden did give our name to a local tv news media person right away. We were laughed at by the local town people. Should have seen the excitement when after the first snowfall tracks were seen within a mile of town. Can't prove what I couldn't find; couldn't show them any evidence for fear of prosecution if I would have. Enough said.

WE HAVE THE SAME RUMOR MILL IN IOWA ABOUT THE STATE DNR BRING IN CATS. EVERY BODY YOU TALK TO KNOWS SOMEBODY THAT KNOWS SOMEBODY OR THEY HAVE SEEN THE TRACKS BACK WHEN. WE DO HAVE A FEW THAT ARE MIGRANTS BUT THE MAJORITY ARE PETS THAT ARE TURNED LOOSE BECAUSE OF FOOD COSTS AND THE RISKS AROUND HANDLING ONE. EVERYBODY WANTS TO BLAME THE STATE AND WON'T EVEN CONSIDER THE OTHER SOURCE

It isent any rumor mill TB. Then you will pay my fine when I get caught. Your federal employes have lied to you again and you belived them. If there pets turned loose there wouldent be a fine for puting one or two out of there misery would there? Game wardens are federal employes with more authority than cops,sheriff,highway patrol.. When I get one I will check to see if canine teeth & claws are removed ok.

There's plenty of cats around here, SW Montana. There's at least one that hunts in the city limits of nearby metropolis, Bozeman. A friend of mine saw one crouched under the freeway overpass near a whitetail kill. Another friend a mile out of the city saw one standing on his lawn at lunchtime. Wasn't napping on the car, though. It's likely that both sightings were the same cat. Deer are thick as fleas around here ( owing to the fact that the transplanted urbanites that have invaded this corner of the state don't allow hunting on their land ) so you never hear of any cat kills of livestock. I guess mountain lions love venison. Could be that since the wolves are such a hot issue they're getting the blame for some cat kills.
ed

That cat has obviously been enlarged/"photo-shopped," and superimposed over the hunter. Look at how big the rifle barrel looks - it's a rifle, but the barrel looks as big as a shotgun barrel. They obviously enlarged everything and then put it back over the original picture of the hunter.

The barrel is only big enoughf to be a bull barrel on a target rifle, look at the scope its not overly large Just what I see. Have owned rifles with bull barrels that were as large as a 12 gage shot gun barrel.

I dont think that this pic has been messed with. Zoom in on it and the whiskers are still there and there is not any crop lines. If this pic has been messed with it it is the best job ever done yet. Just my openion but it just looks like a big cat that has had way to much to eat.


Jim

Keep in mind that most digital cameras have a perspective range from a distorted wide angle (24mm w/ 35mm format) to a short tele (135mm or so). With wide angle the closer to the lens the more distortion. Like your nose in a door knob. From what I can tell the picture doesn't appeared to be Photoshoped. That cat is big!

Cat kills and dog kills (wolf or feral dogs) don't look anything alike. Dogs run the animal and tear at the hind end until the prey stops or slows down from exhaution - cats pounce and quickly grab the throat, crushing the windpipe and waiting for the animal to suffocate.

Jim, you point out exactly why there are "problems" with cats and coyotes - people have moved into their territories. That's why you have issues in Beverly Hills and other suburban areas.

I have lived in wolf/cat country (N.Idaho) for decades and it surprises me that the only people that have ever seen either one are folks who want them dead. Sure, some are running dogs and are actually in the backcountry but most are people whose outdoor experience involves sitting around a fire with a half-rack and some Jack Daniels - Wait- maybe that's how they see those critters - "beer goggles"!

And big deal - you see some paw prints that prove there's a cat or wolf in the area. It is highly unlikely that they'll do anything but pass through. I just think it's a bunch of folks who want to have something to get all worked up about. Go hunt the sasquatch instead.

Also, all game wardens are not feds. Some, if not most, are state employees.

What ever geoff, might I ask you to take off your "beer goggles". We have had 3 cows killed by a cat or cats, yes it has been verified by game and parks. It is not just my say so. I have been told by the game warden to shoot then call him. I just love how you "bunny huggers" can blame it all on what ever you can, anything but the truth! On second thought keep your "beer goggles" on. The truth might scare you.

http://www.missoulian.com/news/local/article_5ff01772-938f-11de-9aca-001cc4c03286.html

this was in 2009. Hmmm better yet just put a blindfold on cause it just gets worse.

http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm

Please tell the people that got killed that there is no such thing as big cats out there. Oh yea and that if there was that they would not hurt ya, You are so funny, not really. Wake up and do some reserch for your self, that will require that the TV and computer gets shut off for a while. Go out away from not just the big cities but the small towns. Out where the farmers and ranchers live. I have local news reports from all over N Idaho if you want them. I have neighbors that have had cattle killed they too have been told to shoot then call. It is a problem and not a little one either. But that is ok we will deal with it in the only manner that works, works every time. No telling the cats to shoooo dose not work. Ok I had better stop and I appoligise to everyone I did not mean to loose my temper. But this "rumor mill" that there are not any cats out there or that the cats dont kill cattle or that they are all pet turned loose, kinda gets me upset.


Jim

I dont mind them passing through. just there killing while there passing through. No. central Nebraska is not there normal range someone just moved into. the cats & wolves have no reason to be scared of anyone cant hunt scare or kill without confirmed kills then may get permission to act this is after $1000.s in damages all at my expence when its your money I'll let you feel bad. no one here goes out without a gun, dont feel safe letting anyone go outside after dark alone!! They cant pass through quick enough. well in 30 days he will pass through again, unless someone else kills him hope hope.

I think what helped us out up here was the story got out before deer season. 6000 deer permits were sold in the area that they had moved into. I know of 1 getting shot at. After that they split up it seemed. It seemed they had a pattern up until then. If you could figure out the direction they come from, you might be able to catch them before they kill again. We heard of sightings before they got here the 3rd time. It helped. They were within 1 day of 30 days.
I agree with the Fox's. Until you have a problem animal thats secretive like a cat, you don't understand the problem.

Jim -

First, I never said that there are no cats in your area or that they are released pets or that they don't kill livestock so get off my case and quit the name calling garbage. I also farm and run some stock in N. Idaho and those that seem to run into trouble with cats or possibly wolves are running their animals on backcountry BLM or Forest Service grazing allotments. It's still a loss but less surprising than having them in your barn lot.

If your cats and wolves in NE aren't afraid of anyone, you should be able to wipe them out in pretty short order - so have at it!

Some of your websites are about as reliable as that picture - if that's a real kill it better be in Boone and Crockett by now.

F&G didn't respond to your Obama / Dolly Parton example because it was ridiculous and not worth wasting their time debating with you.

Yes geoff But what you missed is that is the way that the game wardens are trying to tell people that they dont know squat. I have found tracks within 200 yards of my house, so I would say that they are not to scared. Now if you do not want me to call you a "bunny hugger" then please DO NOT try to insult me with your higher then thou attitude. Hmmm Montana local news papers are not reliable? Ok glad to know that. Ok not really I will continue to trust local news papers a lot more then any of the national networks, at least they put out the truth, or what they were told and is belived to be true. "The truth is the truth, facts are facts unless your a politician". (not sure who said it)

As to the picture can you offer any proof that it has been photo chopped? All that I did was look at it to see if there was any chop lines, I did not find any. That is not saying that it wasnt chopped, just that I could not find any thing that would prove that it was. So now are you reliable or not? Please offer something that could be offered as proof. Wheather this cat ever makes it to the Boone and Crockett list would be left up to the hunter. I have seen lots of Big Mouth Bass cought that would have gotten the guy a anglers award but that is not his reason for fishing. Just because you get a trophy fish, deer, elk, cat or what ever dose not mean that you will put in for the trophy.



Jim

"please DO NOT try to insult me with your higher then thou attitude."

Apparently, anyone that doesn't agree with you is trying to insult you.

Well geoff, Like I asked for and you cant or will not provide any facts as to why you belive the way you do. Then you insult anyone that has ever seen a cat in their back yard by calling them drunks. So then you get all offended when I called you a bunny hugger, ok I can even see your point, but I called it the way I see it. Cats do not just pass through. They kill, eat, sleep, then start looking for the next kill. Some kill for just the fun of it. Yes there is proof. 60 head of 50# goat kids every week for 4 weeks untill he was shot with a night vision scope, less then 70 miles south and east of here. But anyway I am waisting my time, you have your mind made up so I will not confuse you with facts.

"And big deal - you see some paw prints that prove there's a cat or wolf in the area. It is highly unlikely that they'll do anything but pass through. I just think it's a bunch of folks who want to have something to get all worked up about. Go hunt the sasquatch instead."
I think that your vain attempt to insult was really do to the fact that you can not back up your point of view. After all I have lost 3 cows to a cat or cats this year. Then you try to make it a laughing matter. Well if it is so funny then please email me @ @and I will be more then glad to let you pay for the loss. No I will not be expecting to hear from you anytime soon!


Jim

Jim

If you or anyone else has verified depredation losses then F&G and FWS are to compensate you for your loss. That even includes crop damage from foraging wildlife.

Also, what makes you an expert on cougars? Because you've seen one or two that happen to take your animals? That certainly doesn't make you a wildlife biologist.

Again, I didn't refute that you may have lost some stock to A cougar - not all cougars. Also, I'm saying, based on my first-hand experience and evidence, the people who claim to have seen cougars IN MY AREA are, as I said, drunks. I don't claim to know what folks are like where you live.

"60 head of 50# goat kids every week for 4 weeks" Where was this? That is pretty unbelievable - a cougar killed 8 goat kids every day for 4 solid weeks? A loss of 240 in a month? Come on now - where's the evidence for that? This stuff is what hurts your credibility.

I'll be glad to e-mail you but you're kidding yourself if you think I'm paying for your "claimed" losses. Post some pictures of them if you've got 'em.

BTW Jim -

I did read the stories at your 2 sites and this is what I found:

The Missoulian article is about a huge number of sheep killed by wolves - not cougars. And they go onto state that no one can recall anything on a scale like that ever happening - incredibly rare.

The other site had these facts RE: cougars

1)Cougars usually tend to avoid people. There have been times when the cats have followed or watched people, probably out of curiosity. However, mountain lions are aggressive when attacking natural prey, such as deer, elk, bighorn sheep, or wild hogs.

2)It is estimated that 75 to 95 percent of all lion sightings are mistaken -- usually deer, bobcats, dogs, even domestic cats. Mountain lions are experts at hiding while moving about in the wild.

3)Deer are the cougar's primary prey, and the two have lived together for thousands of years. There is no evidence the cats cause serious damage to healthy deer herds. However, cougars may slow the recovery of deer herds suffering losses from disease, drought, or a hard winter.

4)Mountain lions have lived in close proximity to people since the arrival of the first Native Americans. The big cats live near every town and urban area in California.

Also From your refernced website:

It is important to keep in mind that lion attacks are still extremely rare in California and nationally. For some reason, humans worry much more about rare dangers than about common dangers. Two examples:

In California, from 1986 through 1998, exactly two people died from mountain lion attacks, whereas in one year alone, over 4,000 people died in traffic accidents, including 800 pedestrians. This means that your car or someone else's car is ~2,000 times more likely to kill you than is a mountain lion. (A Detailed Calculation gives the ratio as between 1,150 and 4,300.)

Over 300 people have been killed by domestic dogs in the U.S. between 1979 and the late 1990s. This means that your family dog or your neighbor's dog is ten times more likely to kill you than is a mountain lion and hundreds of time more likely than is a coyote.


The current reported attack rate in the U.S. and Canada is ~6 attacks per year, with just under 1 death per year. This number has been constant since at least 1991, with no evidence at all that the rate has changed.

There's some facts for you.

geoff 1 person getting killed is 1 to many Do you agree?


Jim

I am more afraid of one driving teenager with a cell phone than a cougar but I don't want any cougar following me, either, even out of curiousity.

Look - If you have proof that a cougar killed livestock or attacked people, fine - destroy it. But that doesn't mean that every cougar that's seen needs to be hunted down and killed. They are not all threats.

That said, if you want to live and recreate in wilderness and wild natural areas, there is some risk involved - albeit incredibly small. If you want to run or mtn bike or whatever in a "safe" outdoor place, stay in your city park or on the treadmill.

We, as a society, are pretty cavalier about human fatality when it's something common (car accidents, cancer etc) but get crazy about things that are so rare we can hardly relate to them (animal attacks for example).

I would rather end up a meal for some animal than a stain on the highway someplace, to be bagged up and incinerated. Dead is dead.

The mtn lion season just ended here in the Blk Hills, ran from Jan 1 thru Mar 31, OR until hunters killed either a total of 40 lions or until such time as 25 female lions had been killed. 40 lions had been killed by Feb 10, 24 of them were females. The first lion season was in 2005 and 13 lions were killed.
Our first encounter with lions was in 1989 when one attacked my husband's gelding, scratched him up pretty badly on his hindquarters, then the horse must have turned to fight as he had scratches all over his face. State trapper agreed it was a lion attack, probably an old one who had been displaced by a recent forest fire a ways west of us. The GF&P folks denied that there were lions for years until they became so thick that people were videotaping them in their yards, hitting them on I-90 and other highways, and even had one come into a house in Spearfish, SD thru a screendoor to try to eat a pet. Lots of folks have lost pets to them in their backyard, they have been seen(documented sightings) in Rapid City, our neighbors had one lying on their picnic table and drinking out of the birdbath, etc. They are also taking livestock fairly regularly out on the prarie in western SD. All that having been said, I am one of the few people in our area who still rides horseback in the Forest Service behind our place, and I have yet to see or hear one. I have seen what I am sure are cat kills, very close to our house. I plan to continue to ride this area, but I may start carrying a gun, but that would potentially be as much because of the 4wheeler riff-raff on Forest Service as because of any cats. I only ride this area on weekdays now because of 4wheelers, rather than on weekends as I ride alone. IF cats become a problem to our horses or livestock, I will use the SSS solution.

trying to make light if facts isent funny. you have your mind made up. Dont confuse you with facts. the old timers thined them out for a good reason cats wolves your smaller than they are your on the food list for them. kill them all let god sort them out. f&w pays for very little if any loss there politians.Yes go run in your city parks where the muggers are. If you kiled every one you see still would have way to many wolves & mt lions. Hope you get your wish.

Ironically, the Wisconsin DNR just issued a statement that they have tracked a lion between Seeley and Cable, WI, in Northwest WI. Photos of the prints, and maps of the trail left behind. Now we know officially that we have one...... or more.

What is this gibberish?

"trying to make light if facts isent funny.....cats wolves your smaller than they are your on the food list for them.....f&w pays for very little if any loss there politians."

Cat got your tongue?

Geoff I'm not sure what your deal is but you are picking a fight with a guy that lost some stock to a cat. Of course he is mad and you have your reasoning and he has his. I would align myself to his way of thinking especially if I was standing in his boots. If they were eating your stock you'd get pretty mad too I bet. We have them here also and the wildlife folks claim not. Neighbors have pictures and videos and some dead animals to prove it. If I saw one in my back yard or sizing up my herd I wouldn't wait for it to kill my stock or injure my family that's just stupid. Now get off this guys back, Mr Fox has more important things to do than argue with you he's got huntin to do. If you like big cats so much you can hang out with them all you want but remember the guy that went to live with the grizzlies they ate him.

Reuben James, Amen! When you get one that is doing that kind of killing they only get better at it. OR Die.

Interesting thing is; I read where coyotes program their pups by what they kill. I had a big coyote and his mate for years den within my pasture boundary. Never lost any calves " month old" to them. After about 5 years they may have been shot or died of natural causes. Started to lose calves after that. The theory was they protected their home terf against pups that were pushed out as they matured. Maybe some lions are like that also? I dread this year, deer herd way down and no jack rabbits. Not a good year for a baby of anything when the coyotes will be starving.

"Cat got your tongue?"

I agree that was "picking on" KC but it certainly wasn't unsolicited. And none of you seemed to jump in and complain when Jim started in with the name calling because I disagreed with him. It cuts both ways.

In addition, I made the point that cats killing livestock should be removed (killed) - no problem. But when you just shoot any one you see, you can end up with exactly what Don McAvoy said:

" I had a big coyote and his mate for years den within my pasture boundary. Never lost any calves " month old" to them. After about 5 years they may have been shot or died of natural causes.Started to lose calves after that. The theory was they protected their home terf against pups that were pushed out as they matured."

Man, I'm not sure where you are but deer herds are certainly not in decline around here! Anything but.

It's the same gibberish that you speak but different side than you speak OK. I don't care for Your bunny hugging thoughts, you have a right to your opinon even if your wrong which you are. I was tired mad printed like I thought & thats what happened diden't read after typed just post it. thanks for the come back have enjoyed it all not mad just right.

The bigest problem is momma cats with kittens to feed. In 93 we cut timber on 600ac. 60m.south of st.l. in the mississippi riverbluffs on the il. side. At the start of spring we seen 40 to 50 deer every morning. Then we started finding half ate deer 10 to20feet up trees every few days.By the end of summer we never seen deer tracks and the landowner was loosing 200# calves.We tracked them several times after a rain, one mamma cat and twokittens.We have had big cats around home(45miles eastof there) for years with no lost stock on our farm.But after having one scream in the woods next to the house several years back we now raise great pyr.gaurddogs.Being mostly nocturnal our five adult dogs keep the big cats run off along with other varmits and stray dogs.These dogs will not tolerate anything getting close to the livestock.

bv.... how do you train the dogs to know what to do?

The pyres were bred in the french mountains to fight off bears and big cats to protect sheep goat herds.Just like any working breed the good dogs were kept and the bad discarded.The gaurding instinct was bred into them over generations of seletion.In our pack the oldest female will stay in the center of the stock on ahigh spot.The younger females and the male will spread out around the farm at night.They will generaly be between thewoods and the flock.If one dog barks agresivly the rest come running.They tend to sleep during the day with a diferent dog getting up every hour and making a trip around the place to see if all is well.When we got the first one she stayed close to the stock,as we got more they developed a larger perimeter around the stock.I have been amazed with these dogs ability to be as gental as can be with strange children that visit our place,pick up a new lamb atlambing time and help bring it in the barn without ascratch,but be extremly agressive toward varmits.These dogs were also bred with avery thick fur coller and very little feeling in the skin around the neck(shots are abreeze)for protection.They also tend to prefer fighting standing on their back feet.I always figured this would help in bear enconters.As far as training goes gaurding comes natural and a harsh word is all that is needed to stop bad behavure when young.They learn very quickly and early what their job is and they love to do it.

I agree that guardian dogs can really be a good help - with cats at least. Pyres, Anatolians etc usually are raised with the sheep (sort of a bonding thing) so any threat to their herd gets a response. I know of folks running small bands of sheep near on forest borders that have these dogs and they've killed lions that were getting after there herd.

I'm not so sure about wolves. I think that's a very different kind of fight - now your dogs have to deal with more than one animal. In our neck of the woods, hound hunters will run bears, cougars etc but they really fear wolves cause they'll kill your dogs.

Every Fall the wolves in NorthWestern Wisconsin kill many, many bear dogs. An annual ritual.